Saints next few moves (1 Viewer)

[LetsGetWaffles]

He's not a NFL corner plz let it go dead horse.

FIFY. He was corner at OSU.

IMO he's definitely not suited to play as a full time NFL corner mainly bc of his speed (or lack there of). The stats and game film from his first season with us playing at nickel prove this. I honestly think he is best suited to play SS bc of his ability to man up on TEs based on his size and the fact that TEs tend to be slightly slower than WRs.

I'm not saying he'd be a great SS bc of his tendency of not being a great tackler, but I'm not sure how RR uses his SS. If they're used more in the box for blitzing and run stopping I don't see him being that great of a SS, but I think he would be very effective if RR uses his SS mainly to read and react to TEs and RBs.

 

[1badsailor]

FIFY. He was corner at OSU.

IMO he's definitely not suited to play as a full time NFL corner mainly bc of his speed (or lack there of). The stats and game film from his first season with us playing at nickel prove this. I honestly think he is best suited to play SS bc of his ability to man up on TEs based on his size and the fact that TEs tend to be slightly slower than WRs.

I'm not saying he'd be a great SS bc of his tendency of not being a great tackler, but I'm not sure how RR uses his SS. If they're used more in the box for blitzing and run stopping I don't see him being that great of a SS, but I think he would be very effective if RR uses his SS mainly to read and react to TEs and RBs.

do you mind sharing the film you saw Jenkins showing his inability to play at cb? I cant remember anything aside from him being tremendous against Welker for some reason. Jenkins certainly doesnt have any issues with tackling, he has to be one of the better tackling dbs out there. our safeties are judged on the 3 or 4 times a game when our front 7 is stalemated and they are forced to come down hill against a rb typically dbs tackles are made against wr or players who arent expecting and these guys are all of a sudden great tacklers, thats not the case. most safeties are allowed to play their game as a safety not as a lb like ours because of a poor front 7. its very early but i hope this makes sense

 

[Domeination]

Harp and IAQ should be the starters

Neither one is good enough to be a starting safety in the NFL, and I don't think a new scheme is going to change that. I like IAQ as a backup, but one of our biggest problems last season was poor, and at times almost non-existent, play at the safety positions. I'd love to see the Saints somehow snag Ed Reed for a 1 or 2 year contract until we can find the long term solution at the back end.

 

[meily]

This Jenkins cant play corner conversation is rediculous...he was the top corner in college football when he was drafted by the Saints...he was only projected as a safety because the NFL utilizes cover safeties now because of the passing game and him running a 4.5 forty had scouts projecting him on the backend...I think he is more versatile playing FS and moving up to cover the slot....do I think they can move him back to corner..I would say yes...will they?...no.

 

[1badsailor]

Neither one is good enough to be a starting safety in the NFL, and I don't think a new scheme is going to change that. I like IAQ as a backup, but one of our biggest problems last season was poor, and at times almost non-existent, play at the safety positions. I'd love to see the Saints somehow snag Ed Reed for a 1 or 2 year contract until we can find the long term solution at the back end.

football is won and lost at the LOS. if all you have on the team is a safety you have nothing to work with. these teams that everyone thinks has better safeties I wish we could swap for a day so everyone can see how bad other safeties are when asked to do this much

 

[CitySaint]

football is won and lost at the LOS. if all you have on the team is a safety you have nothing to work with. these teams that everyone thinks has better safeties I wish we could swap for a day so everyone can see how bad other safeties are when asked to do this much

So there is no way of determining whether a safety is playing poorly or excellent, because the level of safety play is entirely determined by the front 7.

 

[Goatman Saint]

Ill give them the benefit of the doubt. The fact that both the DB coach and DC were fired to me means that Payton has seen what we all saw. Poor technique and poor placement. Lets see what Ryan can do before we start throwing around the cut everyone because they are terrible. Maybe they are. But if Ryan can put them in roles to maximize their strengths and not expose weaknesses he will make a huge difference.

 

[Bespoke]

So there is no way of determining whether a safety is playing poorly or excellent, because the level of safety play is entirely determined by the front 7.

Exactly, Pass rush and secondary do go hand in hand. But we can also look at it from the opposite view, if a Safety blows his assignment, or isn't where he's supposed to be. That could lead a QB to making that read right away, and getting the ball out before the Pass rush can get to him.

In turn a good Safety who's locking down his assignment, will force the QB to either A.) Hold the ball long enough to check down, or get sacked. or B.) Force the ball into Tight coverage against that Safety.

Sometimes Safeties are in Position but fail to make plays regardless, (this is the case with ours) Look at Vincent Jackson's 95 yd reception where Malcolm Jenkins chases him from behind. Now at the :02 second mark where the catch is made. Watch Roman Harper, that's his side of the field in 2 deep coverage, he's right in position to make a play. Why does he allow Jackson to catch that! Is he playing the ball, or the receiver? I can't tell because he completely whiffs and misses both.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Ytichu2cG7c" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[1badsailor]

Exactly, Pass rush and secondary do go hand in hand. But we can also look at it from the opposite view, if a Safety blows his assignment, or isn't where he's supposed to be. That could lead a QB to making that read right away, and getting the ball out before the Pass rush can get to him.

In turn a good Safety who's locking down his assignment, will force the QB to either A.) Hold the ball long enough to check down, or get sacked. or B.) Force the ball into Tight coverage against that Safety.

Sometimes Safeties are in Position but fail to make plays regardless, (this is the case with ours) Look at Vincent Jackson's 95 yd reception where Malcolm Jenkins chases him from behind. Now at the :02 second mark where the catch is made. Watch Roman Harper, that's his side of the field in 2 deep coverage, he's right in position to make a play. Why does he allow Jackson to catch that! Is he playing the ball, or the receiver? I can't tell because he completely whiffs and misses both.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Ytichu2cG7c" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

P rob and harper didn't do well there. At all. Offenses were able to do whatever they wanted to us all year, when we can't EVER impose our will on an offense how can a defense not struggle we had no identity on defense

 

[HMTVBrian]

I think Harper definitely fits what Ryan wants to do defensively, just like he fit what Gregg Williams liked to do defensively (since they're centered around the same base defense with different personnel groupings).

He's going to play down in the box mostly again which is the strong part of his game. The problem for him, still, is going to be deep coverages which he'll be asked to play sometimes. But he should at least on the surface appear to be a much better player than under Spagnuloa, who asked him to play centerfield a lot more than he was capable.

 

[sheltonwhodat]

do you mind sharing the film you saw Jenkins showing his inability to play at cb? I cant remember anything aside from him being tremendous against Welker for some reason. Jenkins certainly doesnt have any issues with tackling, he has to be one of the better tackling dbs out there. our safeties are judged on the 3 or 4 times a game when our front 7 is stalemated and they are forced to come down hill against a rb typically dbs tackles are made against wr or players who arent expecting and these guys are all of a sudden great tacklers, thats not the case. most safeties are allowed to play their game as a safety not as a lb like ours because of a poor front 7. its very early but i hope this makes sense

Plz use the search tool but I will try and find the videos. They even bump a few threads up. Everyone one this forum was saying never play him at corner. And when he played Wes Welker he had one good play, that should have been holding on him.

 

[Blessedog]

Harper fits this scheme and will be put in a position to succeed, he will probably restructure to help the team though. Jenkins will be put back in his 2011 role and will continue to get better. I think they will both be starting next year but I would rather someone else start over Jenkins, that's just me though. I feel Jenkins is a much better nickel/boundary/zone CB. The only way I see him back at corner in this scheme is in nickel.

 

[WxM]

Don't agree that Jenkins will be gone next year. Too good of a player.

Almost no one on our defense is "too good of a player" to be gone next year.

That aside, there is a decent chance Jenkins is sent packing. In fact, if I had to choose one of Jenkins and Harper, I'd choose Jenkins. Most people would be baffled by that. They'd say that Jenkins is on the last year of his rookie deal, so he deserves another shot. They'd say Harper's got the bigger deal.

I say, Jenkins has had tries at both corner and free safety. Neither have worked out. Almost all of his cap hit is base salary, unlike Harper, which means cutting him won't result in more than peanuts in dead money. The Saints need to take savings everywhere they can find them, especially when they won't result in any long-term pain.

We're moving to a defense that as others have said, is the best fit for Harper (away from a defense that couldn't have been worse for him). Jenkins supporters can cite the Tampa play as evidence of their case, but Jenkins's play was more effort than anything. That effort should be expected from everyone. The mistake by Harper and/or Robinson can in at least some way be attributed to scheme, as Harper was asked to do something he was asked all season to do, which he is not very good at. That problem was corrected (or masked as well as can be) by the change in coaching.

As folks here have also said, this defense is a great fit for Jenkins's competitor, Quddus. I agree. But others have said for years that Jenkins has a bunch of versatility. In his case, I think he's just not that good at anything. He's not an instinctive safety, and he doesn't have the top-end speed to stay with people in man coverage.

The only scheme I see him fitting in well is a Tampa 2 at corner. There, his physicality and toughness against the run would be most valued, and he would be allowed to turn loose guys that run deep past him. Maybe the Saints would be able to trade him to some team like the Bears, but those sorts of things don't happen very often.

 

[Professor]

I think Rob Ryan will come in and get rid of the ones he cannot use in his scheme right away. Good news, I think Harper can stay now and do well as SS in Ryan's scheme. However, I'm thinking (I know people will not like it) MJ moves over to CB. Reason? Well, as we know, pass-rushing OLB's do not come cheap. An elite pass-rushing OLB would probably run around 8-10 mil. We're strained cap-wise, everyone knows that. So I expect Ryan to go after a FS in free agency. Goldson or Ed Reed, even as much as they would cost (6-7 mil or so), are top of their position in the field and come a few mil less per year than making the OLB free agency move and drafting a FS. I think Mingo will be drafted, to me he has the best potential and is the best option for us (even IF JJ is on the board). I think ML will work out a fair contract with Bushrod, using the tag on him is dumb because he's not top 5 at his position, nor does he deserve that kind of money. ML will work out a contract that will fit for this position. I think we will ultimately draft a LT in the 4th or 5th to see if we can strike gold and get some depth there.

I'm thinking Harper would make a good ILB, since his best plays came when he was playing "up" as a run-stopper or inside pass rusher.

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

Id like to see a IAQ and Matt Elam combo @ FS/SS but because Jenkins is in his contract year and IAQ is such a valuable back up i think we will ultimately see Jenkins@ FS and a new starting SS possibly Elam.

If Jenkins doesn't perform then IAQ can take over mid season. IAQ is also a restricted FA next year so if Malcolm doesn't perform and we let him walk we still have IAQ for one year. Then we can draft a FS nxt year.

Contrary to popular belief Harper isn't an ideal fit for this system.

In 3G's scheme we would move him around and make him an extra LB in blitzing situations. Now that we are switching to a 3-4 you will already have 4LB's on the field with 2 blitzing the majority of the time.

In this case Harper doesn't fit because now with an extra LB the SS is expected to cover just as much as the FS and the FS is expected to come down in the box just as much as the SS. Harper doesn't offer versatility in that regards.

He is an excellent candidate for trade to Titans who have a need@ SS following this year. He fits the SS mold in 3G's scheme..not this one.



Go back and look@ all of Rob Ryans defenses. The Safeties are meant to be interchangeable and he doesn't have an in the box safety and a deep center-fielder. They both have similar responsibilities. That means if Harper stays you will see him in coverage more than he needs to be.

I also don't agree with Starting the same two safeties. 1 has to go. Jenkins/Harper haven't proven to be playmakers. So why bring them both back hoping they will figure it out?


IJS