Scarlett Johansson standing up for herself for the roles she has played. (2 Viewers)

[SystemShock]

Yes. Because the play isn't about a Danish prince in medieval times. To be 'faithful' to Hamlet and Shakespeare doesn't require that.

The play isn't set in Denmark, about a Danish prince, in medieval times?

The play is about the human condition.

Whatever the message of the play, it doesn't matter.

But, yet again, movies and theater are completely different media to tell a story. When it comes to movies, the setting, the authenticity of the environment is infinitely more important than it is in theater. And that includes the ethnicity of the people who play the characters.

If you are making a movie about a Viking chieftain, you are going to cast Norse-looking actors. If you are making a movie about the Yakuza, you are going to cast Asian-looking actors.

If you are a casting director:
You are not going to cast Idris Elba as a Nazi officer.
You are not going to cast Jet Li as a Templar.
You are not going to cast Chris Elmsworth as a Tuskegee airman.

Well, you could, but that'll be a very short career as a casting director.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

you are making my point for me

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

The play isn't set in Denmark, about a Danish prince, in medieval times?

no
it is not ABOUT a danish prince in medieval times
neither of those things are pertinent and the story doesn't change if yo change those elements
just like romeo & juliet don't have to be italian 12 & 14 yr olds - because the italianesss isn't important and the notion of 'young' changes when the life expectancy changes from 35 years to 78 years

Whatever the message of the play, it doesn't matter.

But, yet again, movies and theater are completely different media to tell a story. When it comes to movies, the setting, the authenticity of the environment is infinitely more important than it is in theater. And that includes the ethnicity of the people who play the characters.

If you are making a movie about a Viking chieftain, you are going to cast Norse-looking actors. If you are making a movie about the Yakuza, you are going to cast Asian-looking actors.

If you are a casting director:
You are not going to cast Idris Elba as a Nazi officer.
You are not going to cast Jet Li as a Templar.
You are not going to cast Chris Elmsworth as a Tuskegee airman.

Well, you could, but that'll be a very short career as a casting director.

again all of those are choices
and you focus on the 'look' of historical accuracy overlooks theh fact that movies/shows take liberties with history all.of.the.time - Vikings is a very good tv show that seems to give a feel for what it's like to live as a nordic or english or french person at that time (well, mostly royal person), but they play fast and loose with history often

at the end of the day, unless we're talking about documentary film makers, every writer/director,producer is tryin to tell an entertaining story to a contemporary audience
movies are WAY more of a snapshot of the zeitgeist than any sort of historical time capsule

and contemporary audiences (or a significant subsection of contemporary audiences) want more diversity of story and representation than 'hollywood' has offered in the past

 

[SystemShock]

no

Really? The play is not set in Denmark? There is no Danish prince mentioned anywhere in the story? Come on, man!

it is not ABOUT a danish prince in medieval times
neither of those things are pertinent and the story doesn't change if yo change those elements

You can adapt a story in many different ways, in many different settings. You posted a picture from Sons of Anarchy and stated "this is Hamlet". Sure, SoA may be an adaptation of Hamlet, but the setting of a biker gang is consistent of with what a biker gang would look like. They work out of a garage, they ride bikes, all bikes have a certain look to them...

just like romeo & juliet don't have to be italian 12 & 14 yr olds - because the italianesss isn't important and the notion of 'young' changes when the life expectancy changes from 35 years to 78 years

Again, you can adapt a story in many different ways. But in your adaptation, you have to present a consistent environment.

again all of those are choices

Of course they are choices. And if you'd cast Jet Li as Goddfrey de Ibelin in Kingdom of Heaven, you'd have made a terrible choice.

and you focus on the 'look' of historical accuracy overlooks theh fact that movies/shows take liberties with history all.of.the.time - Vikings is a very good tv show that seems to give a feel for what it's like to live as a nordic or english or french person at that time (well, mostly royal person), but they play fast and loose with history often

Sure they play fast and loose with history, but like you said, it gives you a feel for what it was like to live as a Norse or English or French at that time... do you get why that is?

and contemporary audiences (or a significant subsection of contemporary audiences) want more diversity of story and representation than 'hollywood' has offered in the past

Sure, but I doubt that a significant number want representation for representation's sake.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

Really? The play is not set in Denmark? There is no Danish prince mentioned anywhere in the story? Come on, man!


You can adapt a story in many different ways, in many different settings. You posted a picture from Sons of Anarchy and stated "this is Hamlet". Sure, SoA may be an adaptation of Hamlet, but the setting of a biker gang is consistent of with what a biker gang would look like. They work out of a garage, they ride bikes, all bikes have a certain look to them...


Again, you can adapt a story in many different ways. But in your adaptation, you have to present a consistent environment.


Of course they are choices. And if you'd cast Jet Li as Goddfrey de Ibelin in Kingdom of Heaven, you'd have made a terrible choice.


Sure they play fast and loose with history, but like you said, it gives you a feel for what it was like to live as a Norse or English or French at that time... do you get why that is?

clearly one of us is not making compelling arguments
i honestly am not sure what point you're making
each and every production is an adaptation - even opening night or the premiere
going from page to stage/screen is an adaptation

here is an opening scene in Hamlet

BERNARDO

'Tis now struck twelve; get thee to bed, Francisco.

FRANCISCO

For this relief much thanks: 'tis bitter cold,
And I am sick at heart.

BERNARDO

Have you had quiet guard?

they speak these lines so the audience knows what/who - there were no lights to distinguish night from day, hardly any sets and costumes had to be simple to allow for quick costume changes so they could play different characters

is this line was not spoken
MARCELLUS

And liegemen to the Dane.

the groundlings would not know (or even care) that the play is set in Denmark

Sure, but I doubt that a significant number want representation for representation's sake.

i would say this is a backwards way of framing the question
it's more like, 'here are 30 trans actors who could do this role as well if not better than Scarjo - why not give them the chance?'

 

[SystemShock]

clearly one of us is not making compelling arguments
i honestly am not sure what point you're making

That in movies/TV shows, audiences expect a level of consistency in the visual environmental settings of the story, and representation for representation's sake will conflict with the visual.

i would say this is a backwards way of framing the question
it's more like, 'here are 30 trans actors who could do this role as well if not better than Scarjo - why not give them the chance?'

Sure. Give me 30 trans actors who can act better than Johansson. Or 30 actors in wheel chairs who can act better than Cranston.

Heck, just give me a couple each.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

That in movies/TV shows, audiences expect a level of consistency in the visual environmental settings of the story, and representation for representation's sake will conflict with the visual.


Sure. Give me 30 trans actors who can act better than Johansson. Or 30 actors in wheel chairs who can act better than Cranston.

Heck, just give me a couple each.

i just googled and posted
didn't really vet mare than skimming

13 Trans Actors to Follow Instead of Scarlett Johansson

"Trans people live our lives everyday, and our lives are not costumes. They are real and worthy of celebration."

www.them.us

 

[farfromsilent]

i just googled and posted
didn't really vet mare than skimming

13 Trans Actors to Follow Instead of Scarlett Johansson

"Trans people live our lives everyday, and our lives are not costumes. They are real and worthy of celebration."

www.them.us

If you didn't even vet them, then why are you using that to reply to a request to show a few trans actors that are BETTER than ScarJo? You just proved that you don't care who can play the role better, so long as the actor is representing a certain demographic.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

If you didn't even vet them, then why are you using that to reply to a request to show a few trans actors that are BETTER than ScarJo? You just proved that you don't care who can play the role better, so long as the actor is representing a certain demographic.

bc i was helping my kid with the xbox and i have to go pick up pizza in a bit
i was posting bc the information is out there
plus i am not as breathless as y'all are about her - there are plenty who can do as good of a job as she can, bc she's just ok
but again this is making it more about scarjo and the real discussion is about directors, producers and casting agents now actors

 

[RazorOye]

The play isn't set in Denmark, about a Danish prince, in medieval times?

Set in? Sure. About? Nah.

Whatever the message of the play, it doesn't matter.

Shakespeare tells us, explicitly, the play is THE thing.

If you are making a movie about a Viking chieftain, you are going to cast Norse-looking actors. If you are making a movie about the Yakuza, you are going to cast Asian-looking actors.

"Just grab a few Asian-looking actors" didn't work out so well for the producers and casting directors for Memoirs of a Geisha.

(Of course, that also doesn't address the problems in the novel - written by a white dude from Tennessee)

Now, you might be thinking: "But wait, you're saying that it's important that a Japanese woman be cast as a geisha and not a Chinese woman. Doesn't that work against your point and for mine?"

But if you think that, then you haven't really gotten all I've tried to communicate.

Because I'm in agreement with you on lots of things.

I said initially that context is important and this isn't some absolute static phenomenon. I responded to ffs, saying that we can't apply some absolute rule when it comes to things like this because it's such a varied landscape. I even think the distinctions you make between film and stage are important - which is why I mentioned science fiction pages back, too.

Anyway, I used Hamlet to illustrate one such example, because I know it so intimately and it serves to highlight said complexity. I mean, you're wrong on Hamlet but that doesn't mean you're wrong about everything

 

[RazorOye]

there are plenty who can do as good of a job as she can, bc she's just ok

I think she's more than okay, personally.

She was incredible as merely the voice of an iOS - and even though it's just her voice, I think that takes a lot of talent. And Under the Skin also came out about that time and she brought a ton to that role. And also around that time, she was in The Girl in the Pearl Earring.

All of these movies were within a year or two of each other and, to be honest, I'd have to really think about other actors and actresses who had such runs over a short period.

I think she was at her best in Lost in Translation.

I did *not* like her character as Black Widow.

Anyway, I think she's amazing. I do think that she hasn't done much recently that I've found nearly as compelling - but I think that's a product of something aside from her talent.

 

[SystemShock]

Set in? Sure. About? Nah.

Ok. Who is the main character in the story?

Shakespeare tells us, explicitly, the play is THE thing.

Sure, the play is the thing... yet, no matter the setting, no matter the adaptation, you still need a certain level of authenticity, a certain level of continuity in the environment in which the play/movie plays out. Otherwise, why even have costumes in theater productions? May as well just have the actors in Les Miserables walk onto the stage on street clothes, yoga pants, shorts, suits. After all, it's all about the play. No props either. Who cares about the visuals?

"Just grab a few Asian-looking actors" didn't work out so well for the producers and casting directors for Memoirs of a Geisha.

That is not what I said at all. You are better than that. What I said, if you are making a movie about the Yakuza, you are going to cast Asian-looking actors. Why? because the Yakuza is the Japanese mafia, so casting, say, African American actors to play the Yakuza is going to be at best distracting, at worst jarring for the viewing audience.

Now, you might be thinking: "But wait, you're saying that it's important that a Japanese woman be cast as a geisha and not a Chinese woman. Doesn't that work against your point and for mine?"

I am not thinking that at all.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

I think she's more than okay, personally.

She was incredible as merely the voice of an iOS - and even though it's just her voice, I think that takes a lot of talent. And Under the Skin also came out about that time and she brought a ton to that role. And also around that time, she was in The Girl in the Pearl Earring.

All of these movies were within a year or two of each other and, to be honest, I'd have to really think about other actors and actresses who had such runs over a short period.

I think she was at her best in Lost in Translation.

I did *not* like her character as Black Widow.

Anyway, I think she's amazing. I do think that she hasn't done much recently that I've found nearly as compelling - but I think that's a product of something aside from her talent.

Forgot about Lost in Translation
That was good

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

Ok. Who is the main character in the story?


Sure, the play is the thing... yet, no matter the setting, no matter the adaptation, you still need a certain level of authenticity, a certain level of continuity in the environment in which the play/movie plays out. Otherwise, why even have costumes in theater productions? May as well just have the actors in Les Miserables walk onto the stage on street clothes, yoga pants, shorts, suits. After all, it's all about the play. No props either. Who cares about the visuals?


That is not what I said at all. You are better than that. What I said, if you are making a movie about the Yakuza, you are going to cast Asian-looking actors. Why? because the Yakuza is the Japanese mafia, so casting, say, African American actors to play the Yakuza is going to be at best distracting, at worst jarring for the viewing audience.


I am not thinking that at all.

What you need is clarity of intention
You can use all sorts on anachronisms, and as long as it’s clear that it’s intended to be there then cool
Same holds true for reversing gender, reversing/adapting race, kids playing adults an vice versa
No animated would work I’d the ‘authenticity’ you claim was a requirement

 

[Arathrael]

What you need is clarity of intention
You can use all sorts on anachronisms, and as long as it’s clear that it’s intended to be there then cool
Same holds true for reversing gender, reversing/adapting race, kids playing adults an vice versa
No animated would work I’d the ‘authenticity’ you claim was a requirement

Right. The recent Royal Shakespeare Company production of Hamlet didn't exactly have late middle-ages Danish costumes or casting. Still very much Hamlet.