School and parents of HS girls sued over false accusations (1 Viewer)

[MSUSousaphone]

False accusations are so common in family court it has a name.....The Nuclear Option.

But let's pretend this is new and boys are JUST NOW having to deal with that. Can we stop making things mutually exclusive? Sexual harassment and assaults need to be cracked down on as well as false allegations.

 

[RazorOye]

One of the kids in one prison I worked in was locked up for sexual assault charges that turned out not to be true.

I was involved with a lot of people in the system, most of them interested in the concept of equally applied justice, and I didn't come across a single one who didn't think that this was something to be "excused or validated" - most people felt truly sorry for the kid for each day of the 6 weeks or so he'd been locked up. Pretty much everyone agreed it was a total injustice, and incredibly unfair to each of the 3 boys who were accused (I never met the other 2). Discussions around how to protect these kids from such claims, how the accuser can be held accountable and so on.

Obviously a case like this and that require the same fairness under the law and I don't have any hard answers. But it should be noted that I don't - and I never met anyone who did - merely accept what happened to these boys as the price of doing business in the world, an acceptable risk of being male, or was okay because it happened far fewer, in terms of incidence, than actual sexual assaults or whatever else.

Humanizing both sides is vital, but that doesn't mean that both sides are the same in terms of incidence or the social requirements/fallout that women endure who are never even victimized. I work in a school and have worked around kids my entire life and we were warned, as teachers and professors, how to be careful as a male when working with female students. The teacher union in Texas pretty much explicitly said I should enter the union to protect me from paying my own legal fees, if and when, a female student made an accusation.

So, sure, I had to be guarded. But that's a different way of walking through the world than my wife does, a 5'1" 100lb blond.

I can have to be cautious when I'm at work and in some social situations. My wife has experienced cat calling and uncomfortable physical advances and untoward behavior. And she has to be more aware, much more often, in more different ways than I do.

And we can discuss both of these things without having to feel like we're comparing them to one another.

And I've had discussions with my wife about times when she's felt nervous or anxious or when she's experienced something that made her uncomfortable. Not once have I thought to respond in a way that immediately makes it about me or what I've had to do.

I think it's bizarre how these sorts of conversations evolve, as necessarily intertwined.

I've never come across someone who, in a meaningful way, didn't think that these sorts of things (the false accusations) are unacceptable, unfair, tragic, and worthy of attention and justice. But so often when these sorts of discussions start, those accusations aren't usually far behind in making an appearance.

 

[DaveXA]

One of the major issues with making false accusations is this actually ends up hurting legitimate rape and sexual harassment/assault cases. The girls making the false claims are not only hurting the boys they're accusing, they're distracting and drawing attention away from legitimate claims. I agree with others stating that both need to be dealt with in context and both are important issues that need severe consequences to deter people from these acts.

Excellent post Oye.

 

[brandon8283]

False accusations are bad.

Using the relatively low prevalence of false accusations to attempt to draw an equivalency is also bad.

Using the relatively low prevalence of false accusations to attempt to dismiss the high prevalence of real accusations is the worst.

Approaching every accusation with healthy skepticism is fine. But it should be acknowledged that not only are 9 in 10 accusations true, many more incidents go unreported.

There is no equivalency here.

 

[Mr. Sparkle]

I raised the issue not because I'm trying to knock down any particular stat about the prevalence of assault (I think its pretty unknowable anyway), but to highlight how schools and in this case, law enforcement, have become willing to punish alleged wrongdoers on the thinnest bits of evidence (literally nothing more than an accusation). I'd like to see a better focus on due process and evidence-based decision making. And some balanced disciplinary approaches that treat false allegations seriously.

I know a few moms of boys in our school that have retained copies of racy photos a girl has sent of herself to multiple boys - she was present at one of the events that led to a boy being sent out from school, and they are all bracing for the next time because they don't trust the school to ever do anything to cast doubt on a girl's accusations. It's crazy.

I talked about this issue with a board member of my kids' school - my 2 cents was that the school shouldn't anything about an allegation of assault unless there's evidence 1) that it happened on school grounds, or 2) it happened at a school-sponsored event, or 3) there's a police report documenting the allegation. We're getting into moral panic territory, like the day care/devil worship cases of the 1980s.

 

[Joe OKC]

but now that some boys are getting caught up in false accusations now it's a problem?

You seem to forget that one of the oldest forms of false accusations is the dreaded... "I'm Pregnant and your the father."

Whether you want to admit it or not lots of young men were placed into marriage or financial hardships and had their lives altered due to a woman simply saying she's pregnant and the boy is the father when in reality it was a false claim.

You of all people should know the lyrics to Gold Digger.

or this pic from the comic relief in the Movie Stalag 17



Don't you @guidomerkinsrules think that if a woman makes a false claim that a boy is the father of a baby and it's found out years later that he is not, that the woman should be held accountable for fraud?

.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

You seem to forget that one of the oldest forms of false accusations is the dreaded... "I'm Pregnant and your the father."

Whether you want to admit it or not lots of young men were placed into marriage or financial hardships and had their lives altered due to a woman simply saying she's pregnant and the boy is the father when in reality it was a false claim.

You of all people should know the lyrics to Gold Digger.

or this pic from the comic relief in the Movie Stalag 17



Don't you @guidomerkinsrules think that if a woman makes a false claim that a boy is the father of a baby and it's found out years later that he is not, that the woman should be held accountable for fraud?

.

of course, anyone who does anything unethical/immoral should be held accountable

what i do have to wonder is to what degree this is a serious (substantial) issue
since men have controlled the narrative for so long, the slights against them are, more than likely, well outsized any probable affront

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

I raised the issue not because I'm trying to knock down any particular stat about the prevalence of assault (I think its pretty unknowable anyway), but to highlight how schools and in this case, law enforcement, have become willing to punish alleged wrongdoers on the thinnest bits of evidence (literally nothing more than an accusation). I'd like to see a better focus on due process and evidence-based decision making. And some balanced disciplinary approaches that treat false allegations seriously.

I know a few moms of boys in our school that have retained copies of racy photos a girl has sent of herself to multiple boys - she was present at one of the events that led to a boy being sent out from school, and they are all bracing for the next time because they don't trust the school to ever do anything to cast doubt on a girl's accusations. It's crazy.

I talked about this issue with a board member of my kids' school - my 2 cents was that the school shouldn't anything about an allegation of assault unless there's evidence 1) that it happened on school grounds, or 2) it happened at a school-sponsored event, or 3) there's a police report documenting the allegation. We're getting into moral panic territory, like the day care/devil worship cases of the 1980s.

just to pull back a bit, this kind of stuff is bound to get mangled by schools trying to mete out justice/punishment
4-5 people trying to police hundreds or thousands of adolescents (and their parents)
it's why most schools adopt a zero tolerance policy - makes it easier to apply broadly and "fairly" - and also helps to get it off desks as quickly as possible

 

[Joe OKC]

of course, anyone who does anything unethical/immoral should be held accountable

what i do have to wonder is to what degree this is a serious (substantial) issue
since men have controlled the narrative for so long, the slights against them are, more than likely, well outsized any probable affront

I am please... Honestly I don;t quite understand the question.. I do have to run... Butt I was trying to show that false accusation claims from women about sex have been going on for a long time... Since the beginning of time I am sure... This is just the Number 1 way IMHO...

 

[DavidM]

Whether you want to admit it or not lots of young men were placed into marriage or financial hardships and had their lives altered due to a woman simply saying she's pregnant and the boy is the father when in reality it was a false claim.

If a man feels *forced* into a relationship, he can always verify the claim. A paternity test is a hell of a lot cheaper than a years-long commitment to a child that isn't his and a woman he doesn't want to be in a relationship with.

 

[Saint_Ward]

Aren’t they both problems? Shouldn’t they both be handled with equal substance?

Just because a boy from uptown committs rape and gets away with it, doesn’t justify a young lady from Metairie falsely accusing a different man of rape.

Both problems, not equal.

Let's be clear. Actually rapeing someone is by far worse.

Making false accusations is wrong and damaging, but not to the same psychological/ physical level as rape.

Just like not all sexual assaults are equal.

 

[JimEverett]

since men have controlled the narrative for so long, the slights against them are, more than likely, well outsized any probable affront

That seems to me to come from a rather limited perspective - perhaps white, middle class perspective.
I doubt black people, or really most - if not all, minorities would claim that men have controlled the narrative for so long.
Further, even within white culture there is a long traceable line of treating [white] women as virtuous and needing protection, etc.
I don;t think its an accident that #metoo is coming roughly 2 generations or so after the real decline of traditional dating patterns. So-called "hookup culture" seems to me to exacerbate potential problems. And that sort of culture is largely found among college-educated, upper milddle class/rich, white people. Which helps explain the rather limited perspective.

 

[primadox]

Both problems, not equal.

Let's be clear. Actually rapeing someone is by far worse.

Making false accusations is wrong and damaging, but not to the same psychological/ physical level as rape.

Just like not all sexual assaults are equal.

And another factor...all "sexual assaults" are not actually assault. I have to believe that there are many instances when the man truly thought it was consensual, because of the messages of permission being sent despite a possible verbal "no". There's a huge gray area here, where a man cannot assume there's a "no" if the "no" message is not what he's hearing. Women (and men) have to be careful saying that they were forced to have sex if they were in fact sending the message that they were willing partners. For example, situations where the woman really doesn't want to have sex, but doesn't want to say anything because he might not like her so she goes ahead with it, is not "assault", IMO. That's a choice. Or, a woman says "no", and the guy says "oh, come on", and then she says "well, ok". That's sending a message that you changed your mind. Not assault. The man cannot be blamed for "forcing" himself onto an unwilling partner if the woman is sending a message that she might be willing after all. JMO.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

That seems to me to come from a rather limited perspective - perhaps white, middle class perspective.
I doubt black people, or really most - if not all, minorities would claim that men have controlled the narrative for so long.
Further, even within white culture there is a long traceable line of treating [white] women as virtuous and needing protection, etc.
I don;t think its an accident that #metoo is coming roughly 2 generations or so after the real decline of traditional dating patterns. So-called "hookup culture" seems to me to exacerbate potential problems. And that sort of culture is largely found among college-educated, upper milddle class/rich, white people. Which helps explain the rather limited perspective.

well stated and am listening, but i'll push back a bit
let's just take Woody Allen (i used to be a HUGE fan)
in Manhattan, he essentially plays a version of himself (40+ yrs old) dating a high school girl
there are TONS of movies showing the value of the man not taking no for an answer - -and essentially saying 'stalking is a good tactic in courting'
how many times have we seen a silver screen kiss where the woman is grabbed aggressively, she's pushing him away, hitting him and eventually 'melts'
"The Accused" (Jodie Foster) and Fatal Attraction to a lesser degree were compelling zeitgeist films bc it seemed to be the first time were the culture is really having this conversation considering the woman's PoV

now to the "these days" consideration
is "hook-up culture" much different than 60s & 70s sexual liberation & the pill & key parties, et al?
AIDS obviously made 'safe sex' a huge consideration and that probably resulted in less sex
but i'm not sure 'kids these days' are that much different in terms of promiscuity than their grandparents
now MAYBE apps make it so much easier that the numbers increase, but if anything I would say the access to porn (video in particular) and how early kids start watching probably has changed behavior a bit -- and thus the backlash against people expecting/anticipating 'porn-like' experiences is probably sizable

 

[49erKiller]

That seems to me to come from a rather limited perspective - perhaps white, middle class perspective.
I doubt black people, or really most - if not all, minorities would claim that men have controlled the narrative for so long.
Further, even within white culture there is a long traceable line of treating [white] women as virtuous and needing protection, etc.

Oddly enough, the first person I thought of when I read this was Emmett Till.