School Shooting in Tennessee (6 killed incl. 3 children) (1 Viewer)

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from a few years ago
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Love it or hate it, the Second Amendment provides the constitutional framework for American gun laws. As with all things constitutional, Americans are adapting 18th-century laws to fit 21st-century lives. But in reality, the concerns of the Founding Fathers had little to do with either side’s position in the modern gun-control debate. None of the issues animating that debate — from “stand your ground” laws to assault weapons bans — entered into the Founders’ thinking.

Yet because both sides in debates about the Second Amendment invoke what the Founders would have thought, it’s important to look at what they actually intended.

1. The Founding Fathers were devoted to the militia.

Read the debates about the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, and the militia’s importance leaps off the page. Alexander Hamilton, writing in the Federalist Papers, called a well-regulated militia “the most natural defense of a free country.” His anti-Federalist critics agreed with the need for a citizens’ militia, writing that “a well regulated militia, composed of the Yeomanry of the country, have ever been considered as the bulwark of a free people.”

Their disagreement was over how best to ensure that the militia was maintained, as well as how to divide up the roles of the national government vs. state governments. But both sides were devoted to the idea that all citizens should be part-time soldiers, because both sides believed a standing army was an existential threat to the ideas of the revolution.

2. The amendment’s primary justification was to prevent the United States from needing a standing army.

Preventing the United States from starting a professional army, in fact, was the single most important goal of the Second Amendment. It is hard to recapture this fear today, but during the 18th century few boogeymen were as scary as the standing army — an army made up of professional, full-time soldiers.
By the logic of the 18th century, any society with a professional army could never be truly free. The men in charge of that army could order it to attack the citizens themselves, who, unarmed and unorganized, would be unable to fight back. This was why a well-regulated militia was necessary to the security of a free state: To be secure, a society needed to be able to defend itself; to be free, it could not exist merely at the whim of a standing army and its generals.

The only way to be both free and secure was for citizens to be armed, organized and ready to defend their society. The choice was a stark one: a standing army or a free nation.


3. The authors of the Bill of Rights were not concerned with an “individual” or “personal” right to bear arms.
Before the landmark 2008 Supreme Court case District of Columbia v. Heller, courts had ruled that the right of individual citizens to bear arms existed only within the context of participation in the militia. In Heller, the Supreme Court overturned that precedent, delivering gun rights advocates their biggest legal victory.
This was not, however, a return to an “original understanding” of the Second Amendment, as Justice Antonin Scalia claimed for the majority. It’s not that the Founding Fathers were against the idea of an individual right to bear arms. It just was not an issue that concerned them.

Again, the militia was all important: The men writing the Bill of Rights wanted every citizen to be in the militia, and they wanted everyone in the militia to be armed. If someone was prohibited from participating in the militia, the leaders of the Founders’ generation would not have wanted them to have access to weapons. In fact, the 18th-century regulations that required citizens to participate in the militia also prohibited blacks and Indians from participating as arms-bearing members.

4. The Founding Fathers were very concerned about who should, or should not, be armed.
These restrictions on militia membership are critically important to understand. Because despite the words of the Second Amendment, 18th-century laws did infringe on Americans’ right to bear arms.

Laws rarely allowed free blacks to have weapons. It was even rarer for African Americans living in slavery to be allowed them. In slave states, militias inspected slave quarters and confiscated weapons they found. (There were also laws against selling firearms to Native Americans, although these were more ambiguous.)

These restrictions were no mere footnote to the gun politics of 18th-century America. White Americans were armed so that they could maintain control over nonwhites. Nonwhites were disarmed so that they would not pose a threat to white control of American society.

The restrictions underscore a key point about militias: They were more effective as domestic police forces than they were on the battlefield against enemy nations; and they were most effective when they were policing the African American population..............

 
Did those gun control group storm into the Tenn. state assembly yes or now unlawfully? They weren’t carrying weapons but they still barged in and interrupted business, if these were angry, unruly pro-life demonstrators would your attitude be the same?

Answer me and then I’ll answer you.
Speaking of pro life supporters . . . why are they pro life up until birth or until the child is old enough to attend school? Once they are in school, they can be slaughtered wholesale and the firearm is more important than saving their lives. So are they really pro life or just anti abortion?
 
Expelling the three is absolute overreach. There are no qualifiers needed, it doesn't matter who they are or what they were protesting. If you can't handle protesters why are you in politics? We've seen worse behavior from federal level representatives, and I still wouldn't say they should be expelled. You're disenfranchising 160,000 (I think it was) voters by effectively removing their representation. What a farce.
 
Expelling the three is absolute overreach. There are no qualifiers needed, it doesn't matter who they are or what they were protesting. If you can't handle protesters why are you in politics? We've seen worse behavior from federal level representatives, and I still wouldn't say they should be expelled. You're disenfranchising 160,000 (I think it was) voters by effectively removing their representation. What a farce.
They are doing it because they can't win any other way. And in doing it, they are just losing even more badly.
 
Expelling the three is absolute overreach. There are no qualifiers needed, it doesn't matter who they are or what they were protesting. If you can't handle protesters why are you in politics? We've seen worse behavior from federal level representatives, and I still wouldn't say they should be expelled. You're disenfranchising 160,000 (I think it was) voters by effectively removing their representation. What a farce.

What’s worse is they didn’t expel all three, just the two black men.
 
Speaking of pro life supporters . . . why are they pro life up until birth or until the child is old enough to attend school? Once they are in school, they can be slaughtered wholesale and the firearm is more important than saving their lives. So are they really pro life or just anti abortion?
I would say they are anti-abortion, but I say that with some hesitation, because if there's one thing this thread had reinforced to me is don't unnecessarily or inadvertently put words in people's mouths.

But, being pro-life does require a lot more then just caring about unborn children being born and once that's over, you're all on your own, its about having good parents, teaching, providing for them, building a solid, hopefully strong moral/ethical foundation that they use to grow up to be good human beings. Pope Francis II made a very good argument similar to.this very recently that applies to this reasoning and its hard work, dedication, focus, and a lot of patience. And unfortunately, God forbid, sometimes even the best, worthy parents have children that develop serious behavioral problems, or worse.

I don't doubt there are many pro-lifers that feel genuine about going all those extra steps further and some others just feel like maybe we should just give unborn children a chance to live...period. Give them a chance to live as a basic non-starter. When it comes to assisted suicide in most countries, at least the people who are dying gave their written or legal consent to do so before they die. Does it or should it boil down to an issue of some people or a majority of people deciding who gets to live and who dies. Famous British author, activist H.G. Wells, like many prominent Western intellectuals in the early 20th century, was a eugenicist, he once argued it "would be a bloody good idea if everyone in society went to some state society every 10 years or so and explain how their making the world a better place" otherwise exclude, or shun these people from society. Do you really think people like that should be running the world? To lecture me or you and determine whether we're living our lives as good, for the state, like they believe we should?

Abortion and gun control/gun reform laws are two different issues, just like abortion and death penalty are two, separate issues that aren't really comparable.
 
No. They didn't storm anything. They protested. There's a difference.


And the side that showed the aggression happened to be interrupting the transfer of power from one president to the lawfully elected new president.

The other wanted kids to stop getting shot at school. And they were, as you admitted, not aggressive, not threatening, unarmed, and also they were legislators who at least had a right to be in the building.

You're comparing apples and orangutans. One was an illegal act in support of an illegal act. The other was a mildly inconvenient breach of decorum in support of kids not dying.

Keep being on the wr
Doesn't matter if they didn't use weapons, or force. They muscled their way into a lawful assembly as protesters wanting gun control laws. Just because they didn't bring guns, or weapons with them, they still broke into a lawful state asaembly? Peaceful protesting sometimes does involve or does lead to breaking laws or technicalities or statutes. Just because you don't think it should be illegal doesn't mean that it is sometimes in similar cases, like police carrying pro-lifers away who are blockading entrances to abortion clinics or Planned Parenthood meetings.

If I'm a pro-lifer and I break into a abortion clinic and yell slogans while carrying a sign but don't hurt any nurses, doctors, or patients JUST to get attention, I am still breaking the law technically. I mean, I haven't hurt anyone really except I was with a group of pro-lifers and I impuslively decided to.run in and tell them I didnt like what they were doing. Doesn't matter, its still breaking and entering and a crime. Just like when environmentalists all lay down in a lobby pretending to be dead in a stunt to get attention in an Exxon corporate building to bring attention to climate change/global warming or follow a BP executive and harass him while he's walking to his car. They all probably are doing it for a worthy, highly meaningful cause and one I agree with, but its still breaking a law.
 
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Did we ever see what the shooter’s manifesto was? Weird that is wasn’t leaked or plastered everywhere. Very odd.

Anyway. This thread isn’t about the actual event anymore anyway. As with all of these… it’s turned into a partisan political pissing match.

This is why we can’t have nice things.
 
Wh
Did we ever see what the shooter’s manifesto was? Weird that is wasn’t leaked or plastered everywhere. Very odd.

Anyway. This thread isn’t about the event anymore anyway. As with all of these it’s turned into a partisan political pissing match.

This is why we can’t have nice things.
I think we've moved past that point a long time ago and honestly, like you tried to do earlier, you and others made some very good points about regulating or even instituting assault weapons bans, and I agreed with them, then and now. Some issues are difficult to.discuss, even if you, intellectually agree with 80% of what they do if you aren't completely 100% on board with them, well, screw you and Ill make a jerk of myself just to prove how superior I am to you.

I saw how you, Dago, and others tried arguing reasonably(very good arguments, I'd say) over the course of this thread, and I swear to God, it pisses me the hell off how you were treated. That's why I got back involved in this thread after about a week or so because when I see posters I like, good people I respected, it bothers me.


And with that, I'm done with this thread.
 
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Wh

I think we've moved past that point a long time ago and honestly, like you tried to do earlier, you and others made some very good points about regulating or even instituting assault weapons bans, and I agreed with them, then and now. Some issues are difficult to.discuss, even if you, intellectually agree with 80% of what they do if you aren't completely 100% on board with them, well, screw you and Ill make a jerk of myself just to prove how superior I am to you.

I saw how you, Dago, and others tried arguing reasonably(very good arguments, I'd say) over the course of this thread, and I swear to God, it pisses me the hell off how you were treated. That's why I got back involved in this thread after about a week or so because when I see posters I like, good people I respected, it bothers me.


And with that, I'm done with this thread.
All good. I’m used to it. There are things we can learn from each situation to make reasonable and logical decisions on steps forward. But the powers that be don’t want that. They want us doing what’s being done here. Arguing about nothing. There should be reasonable regulations on guns. No different than the ones we had have for car ownership/operation or boat ownership/operation. But that solution doesn’t cause the proper division needed to farm votes. It’s pisses me off that people don’t see that, and demand people in office to stop making everything binary and single issue. None of this is black or white. It’s all grey. And until everyone gets their collective heads outta their arse and realizes that…. None of this gets fixed.
 
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