Scouting Outside The Box (1 Viewer)

St. PJ

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The coaching staff and front office pool their knowledge together and develop a philosophy on how film is graded, what traits and skill sets are at a premium for each position, how their system utilizes each position, and ultimately sets guidelines for how their scouts interpret and judge a prospect.

Depending on the hierarchy, either the head coach (think Patriots model) or the general manger (think AJ Smith) has the final say as to what characteristics he places a premium on. With the Saints, if you consider the "looks like Tarzan, plays like Jane" players brought in under Haslett, as well as the offensive gems found in the Payton era, it seems that the head coach has had the final say with Loomis. Furthermore, it is obvious Loomis and Payton share a brain and work very well together.

Since Payton took over in 2006, this organization has been adept at finding value late in the draft and with UDFA's on the offensive side of the ball. From Colston to Nicks to Evans to PT to Strief and Moore and Morgan and Graham and Del La Puente to _____, the scouts know exactly what to look for to find offensive players that the staff can develop and utilize pretty quickly. It makes sense-- Payton is an offensive guru, and he knows just what will work in his system.

Scouts typically scout an area; not one side of the ball. As great as Sean Payton's model is at spotting offensive talent, I think there is much room left to improve when trying to find defensive talent. I think Payton has gone the route of deferring to the defensive guru (when he has had one) when it comes to telling the scouts what to scout for. I conclude that either the said guru (3G) either didn't chose the right talent or didn't develop said talent.

We now have another, less successful "guru". And though it is too late to make changes now, I propose a solution that comes from outside the box. Instead of changing the criteria for our scouts every time we change a defensive coordinator, why not double your scouting force?

Let me elaborate. Take a close look at the NFC West. Seattle, San Francisco, and Arizona all have had stellar defenses. Each has had the same kind of success finding late round or undrafted gems and gotten significant development and return out of those players. I say let's hire away some of those NFC West scouts, pair them up and send them out with the scouts we already have. The scouts we have are to focus just on offense-- that's what they do best, while the newly hired scouts focus on just defense. After a year or two, we'll have the best of both worlds.

The scouts we steal from those defensive juggernauts can share their secrets on the criteria they place a premium on. They can help our offensive guru head coach become a better all around head coach, redefining what he values on defense. Of all the coaches in the NFL today, I'd have to say Bill Belichick is the most complete-- he knows what to look for on both sides of the ball. He made a name for himself on defense, but we know that like Sean Payton, he's on the forefront of setting trends on offense. Sean's next step in development is refining what he looks for in a defensive player. Instead of changing defensive gurus, lets add some scouts who know what a bonafide defensive player is.
 

bornnraisedwhodat

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I think our scouts are fine. But when the coaches get involved things change.

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St. PJ

St. PJ

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I think our scouts are fine. But when the coaches get involved things change.

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well, I'm not excited about the development @ the LB and DL positions. I like Vitt's moxy and locker room presence, but I think maybe he's better suited in the role of Payton's pimp hand than as LB coach. Bill Johnson? hasn't done much better than Ed Ogeron nor the guy before him. Just saying, who was the last player in the front 7 to DEVELOP and GROW which resulted in significant impact on the field in the Payton era? Cam Jordan seems to be the only one to have shown marked improvement. So either numerous coaches have failed under 3 different defensive coordinators, or we are choosing the wrong players, or a combination.

We are on the 4th defensive coordinator since 2006. At least the 3rd defensive line coach, the 4th DB coach, ect. Name one gem who has risen to the status of Lance Moore of Pierre Thomas-- solid role player/starter. Name one defensive find who became a pro-bowl talent like Jhari Evans or Jermon Bushrod or Carl Nicks. Name one top round defensive pick who fit the bill (aside form Cameron Jordan whom I agree is a good choice).

The point is that something is wrong. The scouts and coaching staff are picking and developing offensive players off the street and late in the draft all along the offensive line and at skill positions. But not on defense. We've already had numerous coaching changes on defense. But have we had fresh blood, proven defensive winners in the scouting department? I think its a fair question. I also think we shouldn't get rid of the scouts we have because they hit homeruns on offense, so why not hire away the scouts from teams who year in year out find those diamonds in the rough on defense and add them to our offensive star scouts we already have?
 

stcal

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right now we already have one of the largest scouting dept in the league, that was one of the 1st things sp demanded when he came on board. if you notice they have defensive head coaches out there,(singletary put the 49er's defense together.) since the offensive coach got there they have made more of an offensive push. so my point is whatever the head coach is they will spot those players better and sp is no different
 

Saint Kamara

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I think it's a natural progression that if you hire an offensive minded head coach the emphasis will be on that side of the ball and less "attention to detail" will be made on the other side of the ball.

Just like a team like the Steelers, e.g., who have had tremendous success on the defensive side of the ball with both Cowher and now Tomlin, their short fall is almost always the offense.

It took Payton a year too long to decide to bring in a new DC when we wasted away the 2008 season. A year in which we were easily a 12 win team had we played any kind of defense. But he kept his buddy Gibbs, because he probably thought well we'll just outscore our opponents.

Just think if Payton makes the correct choice for DC and hits a home run in 2006. Saints could easily be looking at being a 2 and probably 3 time Super Bowl champ in his first 6 seasons as head coach.
 

birdog

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well, I'm not excited about the development @ the LB and DL positions. I like Vitt's moxy and locker room presence, but I think maybe he's better suited in the role of Payton's pimp hand than as LB coach. Bill Johnson? hasn't done much better than Ed Ogeron nor the guy before him. Just saying, who was the last player in the front 7 to DEVELOP and GROW which resulted in significant impact on the field in the Payton era? Cam Jordan seems to be the only one to have shown marked improvement. So either numerous coaches have failed under 3 different defensive coordinators, or we are choosing the wrong players, or a combination.

We are on the 4th defensive coordinator since 2006. At least the 3rd defensive line coach, the 4th DB coach, ect. Name one gem who has risen to the status of Lance Moore of Pierre Thomas-- solid role player/starter. Name one defensive find who became a pro-bowl talent like Jhari Evans or Jermon Bushrod or Carl Nicks. Name one top round defensive pick who fit the bill (aside form Cameron Jordan whom I agree is a good choice).

The point is that something is wrong. The scouts and coaching staff are picking and developing offensive players off the street and late in the draft all along the offensive line and at skill positions. But not on defense. We've already had numerous coaching changes on defense. But have we had fresh blood, proven defensive winners in the scouting department? I think its a fair question. I also think we shouldn't get rid of the scouts we have because they hit homeruns on offense, so why not hire away the scouts from teams who year in year out find those diamonds in the rough on defense and add them to our offensive star scouts we already have?
This is a great post StPJ, and I asked this question many times.....who's at fault when the Saints draft a player, who turns out to be a mediocre performer?

Was it his talent evaluators?.....or was the talent developers? They are not the same, you know....the talent evaluators are scouts and those at the personnel dept......

or, the talent developers......coaches in general.....position coaches, DCs.

They do an excellent job scouting and identifying offensive talent, & then develop that talent.....but not good at all when it comes to defensive talent. The players picked on D just don't pan out like their counterparts on offense. Why is that?
 

JimmyB1775

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I know the answer already. Is there any chance we discuss film of prospects with their coordinators that they played with? A lot of times, what you see on tape isn't want it seems. Blown coverages cause everyone else to play different. A bad tackle could be a result of communication or related to what teammates normally do. Or playing with backups. Every bad play has a reason but some do rate excuses. If they only look at highlight reels, they're destined to make an uninformed decision.
 

CitySaint

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The offensive coaching staff does a better job of developing players, Scouts are not magically finding late round jems. The coaching staff is taking essentially lumps of coal and turning them into priceless gems. I have a hard time believing any late round player would have had considerable impact outside of being coached here, where offensive coaches allow players to thrive.
 

rammar64

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New Orleans Saints used technology to draft their players | NOLA.com

In the NFL draft last month, New Orleans Saints General Manager Mickey Loomis commanded not one but two sprawling systems in the team's draft room, a position that earned him a new nickname: Captain Kirk.

For the first time, the Saints were employing a new technology they have developed, along with a Microsoft partner company. The software, called "I.C.E." an acronym for Interactive, Collaboration and Evaluation, allowed the Saints to compress reams of information and video on hundreds of players, creating a kind cyberspace trading card with dozens of backs that can be displayed with a mouse click or screen touch.


http://www.stats.com/ice.asp
 

Kurgan

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I think it's a natural progression that if you hire an offensive minded head coach the emphasis will be on that side of the ball and less "attention to detail" will be made on the other side of the ball.

Just like a team like the Steelers, e.g., who have had tremendous success on the defensive side of the ball with both Cowher and now Tomlin, their short fall is almost always the offense.

It took Payton a year too long to decide to bring in a new DC when we wasted away the 2008 season. A year in which we were easily a 12 win team had we played any kind of defense. But he kept his buddy Gibbs, because he probably thought well we'll just outscore our opponents.

Just think if Payton makes the correct choice for DC and hits a home run in 2006. Saints could easily be looking at being a 2 and probably 3 time Super Bowl champ in his first 6 seasons as head coach.
As far as drafting goes, Mendenhall, sanders, brown, pouncey, dwyer and wallace (not to talk about holmes, heath miller and roethlisberger) all disagree with you.

I mean, we may be good drafting on offense (or, better, recognizing talent since moore, thomas and ivory were NOT drafted) but we suck big time draftin on D. I can't remember the last time we've drafted a star player on D, pro-bowl / all-pro sort..maybe in the '80s (or maybe you could count will smith, although i wouldn't). While in the "last" years we've had nicks, evans, graham, colston..

I don't know about picking scouts from nfc west teams, but i sure know we need better ones, because it's difficult being worse than this when drafting on d
 

SaintsJunkie

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I think our scouts are fine, and they listen to the coaches a lot , as does Mickey. You can tell by the difference in the talent brought in during GW, and Spags tenure, GW liked speed guys, and Spags liked big thumpers, vitt likes smart guys that are in the right place, but can't necessarily make the play. we will soon see what Ryan likes, combination of all these qualities would be nice.
 

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