Sean Payton has really grown! (1 Viewer)

[tanis136]

The score in the first half had everything to do with Drew, the protection being and defense horrible in the first half. It had nothing to do with play calling. It was the same game plan Payton uses in every game. He tries to throw the ball to set up the run and get a lead so we can run the ball and make the other team one dimensional on offense. It's worked since 2006 and it's working even better this year. In fact, it worked to the tune of 39 offensive points yesterday.[/QUOTE]


That's the problem... You can't use the same game plan for every game. Teams watch film and adjust to your game plan. As a coach, when you see that they have adjusted and are having success against your game plan YOU MUST ADJUST.

Also, the reason we lost to Chicago in 2006 was due to Payton relying to heavily on the pass. Also, in 07'-08' we didn't make it to the playoffs with this "same game-plan for every game" you seem to promote. So in a sense, an inability to adjust has not been working. However, this year Payton is making the adjustments and we are better as a team for it

 

[Beast]

Remember that we likely script the first 15 to 20 plays of the game, and normally, that takes us through most, if not all, of the first and second drives.. With us being stopped early on, we could have still been running the scripted plays.. Payton made the right adjustments at halftime and they found some running plays that would work (re: Sirius interview).. That opened up the play action and the passing game..

 

[rlemieux]

I admit, I thought for sure Payton was fixing to start throwing like he always used to, this is a huge progression in the evolution of Sean Payton as a playcaller and coach. I'm sorry for doubting you Payton, but you have to admit until yesterday you haven't given us any reason not to.

 

[diat150]

Do you think he planned Drew Brees to throw an interception to a Dolphin DB with no Saints' player within 10 yards of him? Do you think he planned for Drew to throw 2 interceptions in the first half? Do you think he planned for Drew to have multiple passes batted down in the first half? Do you think he planned for Pierre Thomas and the o-line to miss their blitz pickups?

The score in the first half had everything to do with Drew, the protection being and defense horrible in the first half. It had nothing to do with play calling. It was the same game plan Payton uses in every game. He tries to throw the ball to set up the run and get a lead so we can run the ball and make the other team one dimensional on offense. It's worked since 2006 and it's working even better this year. In fact, it worked to the tune of 39 offensive points yesterday.

so basically we sucked and all of our mistakes in the first half came because we threw the ball too much? thats what it sounds like... and thats what it looked like. so tell me why didnt we try and establish the run more in the 1st half?

 

[St. Widge]

Or maybe he did realize that he had gotten too far away from the run and that his play-calling was poor in the first half. JMHO, but I think the game at Tampa last year was really a turning point for him as a play-caller...

I don't really see much difference in Payton this year as opposed to prior years other than his use of the power backs over Bush, which has allowed the running game to be more successful. Yes, to his credits, he tries to run a few more times early in games than he used to, but he still throws the ball early to get a lead. The main difference is that in 2007 and 2008 we were not able to establish those leads and that's because we didn't have defense that could even slow the other team down. This year's "commitment" to running game, much like in 2006, is a result of a better defense. Payton has always been a guy who wants to attack through the air early and then shut a game down by running the ball. But, you can't do that until you have a defense.

 

[St. Widge]

so basically we sucked and all of our mistakes in the first half came because we threw the ball too much? thats what it sounds like... and thats what it looked like. so tell me why didnt we try and establish the run more in the 1st half?

The offense failed to execute in the first half, plain and simple. Thomas was ineffective, the o-line was bad and Brees was way off.

You've long established your dislike for Payton's play calling. There was once some merit to it when he would get away from the run whenever trailing, but your criticism of it now is just perplexing. We still threw the ball in the second half and the reason it worked is because the o-line and Bell did a better job of picking up blitzes than did the o-line and Thomas in the first half. Yes, running the ball a bit helped, but that was simply a half-time adjustment to what the Dolphins were doing. The first half was a half where we did what we have done since 2006 (and that's worked pretty damn well for almost 3 1/2 years). It didn't work, Payton adjusted. I don't know what more you could possibly want from him as a play caller. You make a game plan and if it doesn't work you change it to what does work. That's what good coaches do. But, he's never going to set up the pass with the run, it's just not his philosophy and, given that, you are never going to be happy with his play calling.

 

[blasian]

Or maybe he did realize that he had gotten too far away from the run and that his play-calling was poor in the first half. JMHO, but I think the game at Tampa last year was really a turning point for him as a play-caller...

Payton said in his conference that he had intended to come out passing a lot but you can see that things changed in the 2nd half.

 

[Dark Knight II]

The score in the first half had everything to do with Drew, the protection being and defense horrible in the first half. It had nothing to do with play calling. It was the same game plan Payton uses in every game. He tries to throw the ball to set up the run and get a lead so we can run the ball and make the other team one dimensional on offense. It's worked since 2006 and it's working even better this year. In fact, it worked to the tune of 39 offensive points yesterday.

[/QUOTE] That's the problem... You can't use the same game plan for every game. Teams watch film and adjust to your game plan. As a coach, when you see that they have adjusted and are having success against your game plan YOU MUST ADJUST.

Also, the reason we lost to Chicago in 2006 was due to Payton relying to heavily on the pass. Also, in 07'-08' we didn't make it to the playoffs with this "same game-plan for every game" you seem to promote. So in a sense, an inability to adjust has not been working. However, this year Payton is making the adjustments and we are better as a team for it [/QUOTE]

I think you have to give more credit to the Miami defense then Paytons playcalling in the first half because the dolphins studied 2 weeks of tape on the Saints . I also blame the players because the Dolphins came out energized and hyped .

 

[Atom Palmer]

He was setting them up dude. It wasn't bad playcalling, he was setting them up, that's all. Use the pass to open up the run instead of the other way around.

Ive heard this argument repeatedly over the last 24 hours and I still think Payton is senselessly putting us in bad situations. YOU DO NOT WAIT TO RUN THE BALL that late under any circumstances.

First off, we were fortunate that we were down 24- 10 against Henne and Ted Ginn Jr and not Tom Brady and Randy Moss. Miami is 2-4 on the season, A better team would have been able to put us away.

2nd and MORE IMPORTANTLY if Payton keeps hanging Brees out to dry like that early games we could have a catastrophic situation where we lose Drew for the season.

 

[blackadder]

Do you think he planned Drew Brees to throw an interception to a Dolphin DB with no Saints' player within 10 yards of him? Do you think he planned for Drew to throw 2 interceptions in the first half? Do you think he planned for Drew to have multiple passes batted down in the first half? Do you think he planned for Pierre Thomas and the o-line to miss their blitz pickups?

The score in the first half had everything to do with Drew, the protection being and defense horrible in the first half. It had nothing to do with play calling. It was the same game plan Payton uses in every game. He tries to throw the ball to set up the run and get a lead so we can run the ball and make the other team one dimensional on offense. It's worked since 2006 and it's working even better this year. In fact, it worked to the tune of 39 offensive points yesterday.

It had a little to do with it.

Especially when inside your own 20 or backed up against your goal line. You could feel the pressure from Miami. Even after the first pick due to pressure he continued to call that way when an adjustent was required given the field position.

He was slow to adjust and we were fortunate to be able to come back.

As the OP said, against a better team we would have had a much tougher time coming back.

 

[tanis136]

St. Widge you're taking a polar opposite view of who you label as the haters of Sean Payton's "play-calling". If he never changes his philosophy from passing first to set up the run when a team is game planning solely against the pass then he's not a good coach.

My argument is that he has grown to be a good coach and possibly a great coach because he has finally incorporated a run to setup the pass philosophy within his overall play-calling scheme. And regardless of what you may say about the lack of blocking and O-line effectiveness in the first half, the main difference was Sean Payton willing to go to the run in the 2nd half. Once we a broke a couple decent runs Miami couldn't just tee off on Brees. It opened up the pass!!! What's so bad about that? If you can't appreciate Sean incorporating the run to make the Saints a better team then your motives are selfish.

This is not hating on Sean its congratulating him for a job well done. Lets just react faster next time

 

[St. Widge]

That's the problem... You can't use the same game plan for every game. Teams watch film and adjust to your game plan. As a coach, when you see that they have adjusted and are having success against your game plan YOU MUST ADJUST.

Also, the reason we lost to Chicago in 2006 was due to Payton relying to heavily on the pass. Also, in 07'-08' we didn't make it to the playoffs with this "same game-plan for every game" you seem to promote. So in a sense, an inability to adjust has not been working. However, this year Payton is making the adjustments and we are better as a team for it

Setting up the run with the pass is a philosophy, not a game plan. Obviously you change the game plan for every game, but the base philosophy of being aggressive throwing the ball early still remains. There are different ways you can use to attack the defense through the air. Yesterday, we tried to get short passes, swings and screens to work early and against NY, we threw the ball deep. That didn't work yesterday because Miami played good defense, Drew was off and Thomas and the o-line did not make blitz pickups. And, Payton adjusted to that and changed the game plan. So, you see, the game plan did change, but the philosophy to set up the run with the pass did not. And, it's tough to run the ball much when the times that you ran the ball you got nothing and when you turn the ball over twice.

I agree that Payton is doing a better job committing to the run and staying balanced this year, but lets not pretend that he hasn't always been a very good play caller and game planner. Given how bad our defense was the last two seasons, it's amazing that this team was able to stay near playing .500 football.

 

[St. Widge]

St. Widge you're taking a polar opposite view of who you label as the haters of Sean Payton's "play-calling". If he never changes his philosophy from passing first to set up the run when a team is game planning solely against the pass then he's not a good coach.

My argument is that he has grown to be a good coach and possibly a great coach because he has finally incorporated a run to setup the pass philosophy within his overall play-calling scheme. And regardless of what you may say about the lack of blocking and O-line effectiveness in the first half, the main difference was Sean Payton willing to go to the run in the 2nd half. Once we a broke a couple decent runs Miami couldn't just tee off on Brees. It opened up the pass!!! What's so bad about that? If you can't appreciate Sean incorporating the run to make the Saints a better team then your motives are selfish.

This is not hating on Sean its congratulating him for a job well done. Lets just react faster next time

I think you are confusing game planning with philosophy. He has not changed his philosophy at all. He still sets up the run with the pass. He's just made more of an effort to stay balanced this year and been able to run the ball more because it's been effective and we have had big leads. Anyway, I agree he's done a better job this year. But, I think he has gone from being a very good play caller to a great play caller rather than from a bad play caller to a good play caller.

 

[tanis136]

"Your philosophical beliefs plays out in your actions". In this case Sean's actions are his play-calling/game-plan. You can't separate the two. Payton's game plan has been more balanced because his philosophy has changed somewhat. The evidence is in the plays Sean has called throughout this season. I will say that he had a relapse this Sunday to a complete reliance on his previous "philosophy" but in the second half he went back to "Running" to setup the pass.

You can believe in both philosophies and not be a hypocrite. When someone accepts the error in his ways, understands his previous biases and grows from it then he has become a better man. So no, I not confusing game-planning with game-philosophy. I'm just saying Payton philosophy has expanded to include "you may have to run first to setup the pass" and he has become a better coach/play-caller/game-planner because of it.

 

[Cuozzo67]

He looks fatter this year, so yes, I'd say he's grown.

Malcolm in the Middle's middle has grown a little.