Sean Payton has really grown! (2 Viewers)

[St. Widge]

"Your philosophical beliefs plays out in your actions". In this case Sean's actions are his play-calling/game-plan. You can't separate the two. Payton's game plan has been more balanced because his philosophy has changed somewhat. The evidence is in the plays Sean has called throughout this season. I will say that he had a relapse this Sunday to a complete reliance on his previous "philosophy" but in the second half he went back to "Running" to setup the pass.

You can believe in both philosophies and not be a hypocrite. When someone accepts the error in his ways, understands his previous biases and grows from it then he has become a better man. So no, I not confusing game-planning with game-philosophy. I'm just saying Payton philosophy has expanded to include "you may have to run first to setup the pass" and he has become a better coach/play-caller/game-planner because of it.

Payton still passes to set up the run. He did it yesterday and he will continue to do it. It's his philosophy and given how well it's worked, especially this year, it's really hard to argue with it.

 

[eyehatethefalcons]

I was down on Payton's game management skills last year. He seemed to be turning into Mike Martz. This year, I have to admit that he grew as a HEAD COACH in the offseason. The way we ran the ball more times then we threw it through the first four games would've been an unbelievable prediction at any point last year and it won us games this year. But, the thing that shows that he improved is the way he game planned the Giants game. He knew that the Giants would struggle with 4 and 5 receiver sets and he attacked them much more through the air than on the ground. He seems to have really curtailed his mistakes and that shows maturity.

 

[9thward]

When Payton came to us his first year, he used Bush and McAllister and he got 1000 yards rushing while Bush had 500. He uses the run but could not really rely on it in 07(McAllister out injured by the Titans game) then 08 we starting using Thomas. We only had Stecker so when you look at the backs we had, this is what he wanted.

So all he basically did was use Thomas in the first half then Bell in the second. The moment Bell got his carries, he breaks a big gain. Same as when we played Buffalo, Hamilton started in the first and then Thomas in the second half. We wore out the other teams defenses cause we can put fresh legs in. Payton playcalling has changed to where he can do a multitude of thing with the running game and he did stick with it to set Brees up with some time in the pocket. NOw he did say in the interview that the COACHes made some bad play calling as well so There may have been some changes in his game but I am seeing more of the brilliance from Payton as I have seen before.

 

[tanis136]

Payton still passes to set up the run. He did it yesterday and he will continue to do it. It's his philosophy and given how well it's worked, especially this year, it's really hard to argue with it.

What in the world are you talking about!!!?

2008: 2 games over 40 points
8-8 record
Passed: 636 times
Ran: 398 times

2007: 1 game over 40 points
7-9 record
Passed: 652 times
Ran 392

2006: 1 game over 40 points
10-6 record
Passed 580
Rushed 472
Playoff Games: Philly (passed 32 times and ran 32 times)
Chicago (passed 49 times and ran 11 times)

2009: 4 games over 40 points already
6-0 record
Passed 197 times
Rushed 201 times.

So you are completely incorrect St. Widge... When we don't rely solely on the pass and when we incorporate both philosophies of running or passing to setup a balanced offensive then we win. That is what works not the pass philosophy.

Do your homework b4 you ramble!!!!

 

[Wahoo]

I don't really see much difference in Payton this year as opposed to prior years other than his use of the power backs over Bush, which has allowed the running game to be more successful. Yes, to his credits, he tries to run a few more times early in games than he used to, but he still throws the ball early to get a lead. ....

Payton said in his conference that he had intended to come out passing a lot but you can see that things changed in the 2nd half.

I'm not talking previous years. I'm simply pointing out what he said on SIRIUS this a.m. Like I said, listen to the interview, starting about the 6:35 mark. Or for those too lazy to actually listen to it, here is the exact quote in response to the question regarding halftime adjustments:

SP:

...I had told the staff on offense I want to get back to the running game. We're only down 14 and I don't want it to continue a one-dimensional game like we did in the first half. I wasn't real good that way and I thought it hurt us...

Call it "coach-speak" if you want, but sounds legitimate to me...

 

[duckjr78]

I was upset at the time, but am now impressed by SP's decision to go for the 50 yd field goal in the 2nd quarter, even though it was missed. I wanted them to go for it on 4th and whatever to get back into the game, but SP knew how good the team was and that 3 pts could be important. He knew that the team was going to come back and was still coaching the game instead of playing "go for broke" football. The TD vs. field goal at the end of the first half has the same logic to it. Getting points was the important part. And I believe that it was Drew's call to run the QB sneak. If he sees the LB's crowding the A gaps, I'll bet he calls a TO and they kick it.

 

[diat150]

What in the world are you talking about!!!?

2008: 2 games over 40 points
8-8 record
Passed: 636 times
Ran: 398 times

2007: 1 game over 40 points
7-9 record
Passed: 652 times
Ran 392

2006: 1 game over 40 points
10-6 record
Passed 580
Rushed 472
Playoff Games: Philly (passed 32 times and ran 32 times)
Chicago (passed 49 times and ran 11 times)

2009: 4 games over 40 points already
6-0 record
Passed 197 times
Rushed 201 times.

So you are completely incorrect St. Widge... When we don't rely solely on the pass and when we incorporate both philosophies of running or passing to setup a balanced offensive then we win. That is what works not the pass philosophy.

Do your homework b4 you ramble!!!!

yeah, I dont know what he is talking about.

we ran the ball 7 times int he first half yesterday, 3 in the first quarter, of which 2 were to bush and evans. thomas had 4 carries for 20 yards, so I dont know where he got that thomas was ineffective. 3 of his 4 carries were 5 yards or more.

 

[LSSpam]

Miami was flat out beating us in individual matchups early. Running really wouldn't have been more effective. Probably less harmful. We wouldn't have had Brees getting hit as much and probably less turnovers. But the offense wouldn't have moved the ball any better. The offense was flat and the Dolphins thought it was the Super Bowl.

 

[LSSpam]

So you are completely incorrect St. Widge...

He's completely correct. I can only recommend you watch the games more closely.

The pass still sets up the run in that defenses still key heavily off Drew Brees and the potential play-action, not the run game. Watch closely when we run. Tight ends and receivers sometimes go out and routes and defenders turn and run with them, because they're more concerned about play-action then the run. Linebackers play off the LOS and key in on Brees, not the running back. Defensive linemen try to push upfield and don't maintain gaps.

There's no coincidence we run so much better in the second half then the first half. Even against the Dolphins, our most effective runs came precisely when everyone had every expectation we'd be chucking the ball downfield, i.e. when we were still 10 points behind but had moved the ball by passing.

Drew Brees is the single biggest key to our running game.

 

[LSSpam]

When Payton came to us his first year, he used Bush and McAllister and he got 1000 yards rushing while Bush had 500. He uses the run but could not really rely on it in 07(McAllister out injured by the Titans game) then 08 we starting using Thomas. We only had Stecker so when you look at the backs we had, this is what he wanted.

Our running game was really inefficient in 07/08. Obviously he's "grown" as a play-caller, but at the same time it's hard to consistently call run plays when you're running so ineffectively. A big part in the apparent "shift in philosophy" simply has to do with Pierre Thomas' emergence and the overall increased efficiency of the running game this year. It's easy to get comfortable calling 30 run plays when they aren't putting you in 2nd and 3rd and longs.

 

[Galbreath34]

So you are completely incorrect St. Widge... When we don't rely solely on the pass and when we incorporate both philosophies of running or passing to setup a balanced offensive then we win. That is what works not the pass philosophy.

Do your homework b4 you ramble!!!!

Did you bother to break out the ratio by half / score? I'm pretty sure we are running more than in the last two years, but the "complete balance" you see is because we are running out the clock successfully.

In the Giants game, where we rushed more than usual even, we ran 22 pass plays to 17 runs in the first half, and finished up with 12 passes and 19 runs in the second half, to wind up running more than passing. On the last three drives it was 2 passes to 13 runs. On our first two drives of the game it was 14 passes to 7 runs (unless you want to skew it by calling Drew Brees' scramble as a "balanced" rushing call). Say what you want, we are a pass first team. I love that we can and do run more often and more successfully, but do your homework before calling someone out.

 

[tanis136]

He's completely correct. I can only recommend you watch the games more closely.

The pass still sets up the run in that defenses still key heavily off Drew Brees and the potential play-action, not the run game. Watch closely when we run. Tight ends and receivers sometimes go out and routes and defenders turn and run with them, because they're more concerned about play-action then the run. Linebackers play off the LOS and key in on Brees, not the running back. Defensive linemen try to push upfield and don't maintain gaps.

There's no coincidence we run so much better in the second half then the first half. Even against the Dolphins, our most effective runs came precisely when everyone had every expectation we'd be chucking the ball downfield, i.e. when we were still 10 points behind but had moved the ball by passing.

Drew Brees is the single biggest key to our running game.

LSSpam,

Your contradiciting yourself. When D-lineman push upfield, LBs play of the LOS and all the blitzes are coming from the corners mean they're not respecting the run and are solely playing the pass. If you don't run to setup the pass then this will lead to Brees being hit repeatedly, causing a lot of turnovers and effectively shutting our passing game down.

When I watched the games closely, especially the Bills, Jets and Dolphins I saw everything you mentioned but what you failed to mention is how we stopped the D-linemen from pushing up-field and how we caused the LBs to bite on the play action. It was the Run!!

In these cases the run set up the pass... And once again my argument is not that Drew isn't the "single best key to our running game" because he is. My argument is simply that Drew can not do it all by himself!!!

When an entire team is geared to only play the pass run it down there throats until they bite on the play action.. Once that happens Lord have mercy on the opposing team b/c Brees will blow fire down from heaven and nobody will be able to stop him.

Run first when they are playing the pass OR
Pass first when they are playing the run.... that's how you win!!!

 

[Galbreath34]

Listen, we should fire Payton and hire tanis.

If you can ignore the simple premise that winning games leads to running late, and trailing in games leads to passing late to catch up, then you can through sheer obliviousness to reality imagine your way to total domination.

I'd have liked to see some runs early, but to be honest, the problem was less the play calling than it was sorting out the movements and looks Miami was giving us as they sent 5+ guys on most plays. Guess what, a lot of their blitzes would have confused our run blocking too. They came out fired up, we came out flat and got some poor blocking on the edges and weak pickups by our primary rushing RBs (notice Brees wasn't getting creamed when Bush was in to block). If you can simplify things down to run v. pass for our troubles in the game, bravo, you must enjoy a nice simple season of Sundays. It's not surprising giving your cursory analysis of stats over 4 years.

That said, it's a good thing that we can run much better than we have since 2006 when Deuce and Reggie were healthy. The fact that Payton is willing and able to mix in passes with the run while behind speaks volumes to this change.

 

[LSSpam]

LSSpam,

Your contradiciting yourself. When D-lineman push upfield, LBs play of the LOS and all the blitzes are coming from the corners mean they're not respecting the run and are solely playing the pass.

Yes. And this is when our run game really gets going.

If you don't run to setup the pass then this will lead to Brees being hit repeatedly, causing a lot of turnovers and effectively shutting our passing game down.

Obviously not always, as we generally pass heavily in the first half before running more in the second half. Check the play distribution in all our games.

 

[tanis136]

Did you bother to break out the ratio by half / score? I'm pretty sure we are running more than in the last two years, but the "complete balance" you see is because we are running out the clock successfully.

In the Giants game, where we rushed more than usual even, we ran 22 pass plays to 17 runs in the first half, and finished up with 12 passes and 19 runs in the second half, to wind up running more than passing. On the last three drives it was 2 passes to 13 runs. On our first two drives of the game it was 14 passes to 7 runs (unless you want to skew it by calling Drew Brees' scramble as a "balanced" rushing call). Say what you want, we are a pass first team. I love that we can and do run more often and more successfully, but do your homework before calling someone out.

Galbreath,

You're referring to one game... In the Giants game they refused to bring extra men in to pressure our QB so the effective plan was to let Brees set back there and pick them off. However, what I will do is get the stats for the Bills and the Jets (These teams keyed in on the passing game) and the Eagles, Lions and Dolphins and compare them by Quarter and see how the game developed...

I could be wrong but I think the run was used as an effective tool to score not to just run the clock out.

BTW... homework was done