Sean Payton has really grown! (1 Viewer)

[LSSpam]

I'd have liked to see some runs early, but to be honest, the problem was less the play calling than it was sorting out the movements and looks Miami was giving us as they sent 5+ guys on most plays. Guess what, a lot of their blitzes would have confused our run blocking too. They came out fired up, we came out flat and got some poor blocking on the edges and weak pickups by our primary rushing RBs (notice Brees wasn't getting creamed when Bush was in to block). If you can simplify things down to run v. pass for our troubles in the game, bravo, you must enjoy a nice simple season of Sundays. It's not surprising giving your cursory analysis of stats over 4 years.

Think the blitzs were dual purpose as well. Very similiar to the game plan the Cardinals had against the Giants last night as well. Sending multiple people across the LOS not only can create pressure, it fills gaps and shuts down the run.

We were confusing blocking assignments, receivers were struggling to beat DBs in individual matchups on the blitzes, and we had people flat out losing individual battles on the LOS. Combined with some horrible field position and down and distance situations due to sloppy penalties and just the nature of the game, you get the epic disaster we had.

Running the ball instead of passing may have mitigated the disaster some. Brees may have gotten hit less and maybe less turnovers. I'm not saying any criticism of Payton is invalid.

But the way we were playing had very little to do with the play-calling and everything to do with a ridiculously keyed up Dolphin defense and a seriously flat Saints offense. We had bad penalties, blown assignments, and lost matchups. That's just not matching intensity/focus of the other team.

 

[St. Widge]

What in the world are you talking about!!!?

2008: 2 games over 40 points
8-8 record
Passed: 636 times
Ran: 398 times

2007: 1 game over 40 points
7-9 record
Passed: 652 times
Ran 392

2006: 1 game over 40 points
10-6 record
Passed 580
Rushed 472
Playoff Games: Philly (passed 32 times and ran 32 times)
Chicago (passed 49 times and ran 11 times)

2009: 4 games over 40 points already
6-0 record
Passed 197 times
Rushed 201 times.

So you are completely incorrect St. Widge... When we don't rely solely on the pass and when we incorporate both philosophies of running or passing to setup a balanced offensive then we win. That is what works not the pass philosophy.

Do your homework b4 you ramble!!!!

Who said that we rely only on the pass? With an attitude like yours, you won't be on this forum long. Of course, you're probably a former poster that has already been banned once, so I suspect you know that.

But, the point is the we have had a great offense since 2006 and it's because of the man calling and designing the plays. This team is better this year because the defense is better and it allows us to run the ball late in games and with the lead. The fact is that in games where we win, we are generally ahead because of the passing game which allows us to stay balanced and run the ball late. The change this year is that we have a defense that is good enough to keep us in games even when we don't come out and get up with the passing game. I have no idea what you are "rambling" about in the statistics you put above, but they prove nothing about anything.

 

[tanis136]

Obviously not always, as we generally pass heavily in the first half before running more in the second half. Check the play distribution in all our games.[/QUOTE]

That's my point... I'm talking about the effectiveness of our approach. If you see them playing pass, pass and pass then we need to run run run until they begin to respect the run and start biting on the playaction.

With the Jets-Bills-Dolphins we should have started running the ball earlier to give Brees some help and open up the passing lanes. We can't afford to ignore an essential part of what makes Brees and the Saints so successful. Pass first all the time didn't work for us in the past and it won't work for us in the future. We can't afford to make the mistake we made with Miami against a New England or teams better than Miami. Sean Payton know this and is playing it right by using the run in some games to open up the pass....

Now give me second while I get those Sats on the other games

 

[diat150]

before this game we were avg 13 rushes in the first half. this game we had only 7 and only 4 of those were to one of our main rb's. its not like he wasnt effective either, 3 of those went over 5 yards. we continued passing the ball in that half despite brees throwing int's and getting pounded every time he stepped back in the pocket. that led to a bunch of quick 3 and outs and really short drives. its a miracle our d wasnt completely gassed.

 

[Domeination]

All I can ask from Payton now is that he doesn't take so long in the future to make that transition. Against a better team we not have been so fortunate.

Amen, brother.

 

[tanis136]

Galbreath,

I do appreciate your vote of confidence but as I stated earlier, Sean Payton is doing a wonderful job... imho.

Let me state my premise again b4 I continue... Yes, we are a pass first team; yes, I know that only using stats will always be a cursory analysis (unless I have the tape in front of me, all I can go on is first impressions and stats) However, based on past performances vs the performances of this year (imho) I fell as if Sean Payton has grown into a more complete play-caller. He has expanded his philosophy to include running the ball in order to set up the pass, not just running the ball as a means to run out the clock.

The Bills, Jets and Dolphins game are all evident of this fact. And I did go back and look at the play by plays in these games. These games were pass heavy in the first half with remedial results. The Jets and especially the Dolphins were keyed in to shutting the pass down. It wasn't until the second half where we ran the ball more did the passing game open up.

Once again cursory but stats have a hard lying.

 

[MaThIuS]

hopefully payton learns from his mistakes. I dont think this game would have been close had we mixed in the run early.

i agree 100%. dont even wana get into details because i like sean payton, but the first half wasnt too impressive obviously

 

[Galbreath34]

Ignoring the fact that we're leading when we start running the ball significantly more is an easy way to lie to yourself.

In none of your "we're running more in 2009, thus winning more" stats, do you have any game to show where running early led to any lead. In fact, the more we passed over rush at the start of games the more we built early leads. The fact that we have been ahead has led to rushing more. The "balance" of 2009 that you quote has more to do with finishing off games put out of reach by passing than it does to do with us winning more this year than in the last two. You've reversed cause and effect and can't seem to wrap your mind around what you've done.

Despite Pierre's success in the Bills game we still threw 9 times to 11 in the second half with more passes coming when the game was still close. We still have the best QB in the league and still put it in his hands to pull ahead. That's who we are. I'm proud of Pierre/Bell/Bush/Hamilton, but we win/lose on pass opening up the run and not the other way around, no matter how much you want that to change, Brees is a better advantage at QB than any of them is at RB. As good as our rushing is, we don't have Peterson or Walter Payton, we do have one of the all time best QBs to ever suit up.

 

[LSSpam]

before this game we were avg 13 rushes in the first half.

Out of an average, what? 30 first half snaps? Little over 30 first half snaps?

 

[bradman1965]

If we don't make the post-season, it won't be because he's failed to make positive changes as a coach.

I agree, but the conversation has moved beyond making the post-season. You look at a guy like Andy Reid and even though he's been hugely successful by any measure he gets heat from his post season record. And what do some people consider his achilles heel? pass first, run last. hmm btw. I'm a *big* Payton supporter.

 

[St. Widge]

I dont remember how many passes drew threw in the first half this week, but I am going to guess at least 15-20. so far he threw 81 in the first half, so if we go with 17 passes in the first half of this game, he was avg 12.8 passes in the first half thru the first 5 games. thats less than the amount of rushes we avg thru the first 5.

Do you really think approximately 4 extra passes in the first half when compared to the interceptions and horrible pass blocking had much to do with the offensive struggles in the first half?

 

[Galbreath34]

I've counted almost 20 pass plays in the first half of most games, including Buffalo. I haven't gone through all of them today. Only 1/game before yesterday, but the sack plays are passes too. It looks like in most of our games we're 1.5 passes / run in the first half and the same the other way in the second half on average, although that gets compressed a bit a times, it seems to be the game plan.

Buffalo was 20 to 14 and the Giants 22 to 17. 24 to 8 by quick count (not double-checked) yesterday against Miami.

 

[diat150]

Do you really think approximately 4 extra passes in the first half when compared to the interceptions and horrible pass blocking had much to do with the offensive struggles in the first half?

its the lack of runs that is the problem. if you cant decipher how much better this offense is when they attempt to run the ball on your own then I certainly wont convince you. the proof is in the pudding.

 

[LSSpam]

I dont remember how many passes drew threw in the first half this week, but I am going to guess at least 15-20. so far he threw 81 in the first half, so if we go with 17 passes in the first half of this game, he was avg 12.8 passes in the first half thru the first 5 games. thats less than the amount of rushes we avg thru the first 5.

Hahahaha

He has 81 completions in the first half.

He has 121 attempts in the first half.
http://www.nfl.com/players/situationalstats?id=BRE229498

121 - 17 = 104/5 = 20.4 attempts

Let's put this in big bold letters for you
20.4 attempts to 13 rushes in the first half

Splice it differently, that's 39% rushing to 61% passing in the first half. The ratio and number of offensive snaps is exactly what I would have expected. Indeed, it's what anyone who actually watches the game would have expected.

Someone who actually though we averaged 12 pass attempts and 25 snaps total in the first half the first 5 games of the season......

I like you diat, but this should end your participation in this thread

 

[Cjjr72984]

Think the blitzs were dual purpose as well. Very similiar to the game plan the Cardinals had against the Giants last night as well. Sending multiple people across the LOS not only can create pressure, it fills gaps and shuts down the run.

We were confusing blocking assignments, receivers were struggling to beat DBs in individual matchups on the blitzes, and we had people flat out losing individual battles on the LOS. Combined with some horrible field position and down and distance situations due to sloppy penalties and just the nature of the game, you get the epic disaster we had.

Running the ball instead of passing may have mitigated the disaster some. Brees may have gotten hit less and maybe less turnovers. I'm not saying any criticism of Payton is invalid.

But the way we were playing had very little to do with the play-calling and everything to do with a ridiculously keyed up Dolphin defense and a seriously flat Saints offense. We had bad penalties, blown assignments, and lost matchups. That's just not matching intensity/focus of the other team.

Yea I agree LSSpam. Some people find all kinds of ways to nitpick our team when sometimes its good to just sit back and give the other team credit where credit is due. The Dolphins had a good gameplan that threw the Saints off early and fed off the crowd. But the key was the Saints coaches and players figuring out what the Dolphins were doing and the game started changing.

When watching the game, I told everyone in the room "wait until the Dolphins calm down." I knew once the Saints would make a couple of big plays here and there, the Dolphins wouldn't be as pumped and would come back down to Earth a little.