Shanle and "downfield tackles" (1 Viewer)

[TCUDan]

Not that this isn't already being hashed out on other threads, but since we all enjoy technical talk and analysis, I figured I'd go ahead and post a new one.

First, I remember reading something on here a couple of years back by a poster about how they felt like Shanle made most of his tackles "5 or 6 yards downfield." I didn't agree at the time, but since then I'm reading it alot more... especially as of late by fans who want him replaced in spite of the pretty credible evidence that he's a good player, specifically what has been said this offseason by Saints coaches and players. Why would someone like Greg Williams who inherited Shanle and has no loyalty to him be so high on the guy if he wasn't impressed? I don't think there's a propaganda campaign going on, I think it's being told like it is (there's a few links to articles floating around on the board that are pretty telling).

Now as for the specific issue of the "downfield tackles." Firstly, I think this is a myth and people are reading someone else saying that and repeating it because they want to cite a specific reason why they think Shanle's position should be upgraded. I also think his "physical limitations" are a myth on this board, too, but that's a different discussion. Now I'm not going to say that Shanle--or any defender for that matter--doesn't sometimes make tackles downfield, but let's take a look at defensive play for a minute.

On any given run play, you have 9 blockers (QB hands the ball to the RB, neither block). So speaking both schematically and using simple math, that means that your defense should have 2 unblocked players. One is almost always (unless the running play calls for the WR to crack him) the FS. That's why he's called the "free" safety... because he is always "free." Well, you also have a "free' man in your front seven. This is the guy who it is incumbant upon to make the play.

So assuming that every defender except for the free man is stalemating their blocks (neither being dominated nor dominating the blockers), regardless of the design of the run, it is up to the free man to get into the proper postion (by using his keys and reading the flow of the play) to make the tackle on the ball carrier. Because the other defenders are stalemating with their blocks, there will not be any open cutback lanes... everyone is in position. Now keep in mind that RBs are also paid in the NFL, and they are paid to make defenders miss. So it comes down to a one-on-one battle.

So the free man misses, and therefore the tackle is not made at-or-behind the LOS. The defense must now rely on the free safety and/or the engaged defenders (which includes backside pursuit because they will have the best angles) to make the play. Because we are assuming that the rest of the defense has neither won nor lossed their one-on-one battles against the blockers, it is impossible to prevent the ball carrier from gaining yards.

So you see, the point is that 9/10 when a tackle is made at the 2nd level of the defense, the defender who made the tackle is not the one at fault. So by suggesting that you constantly see Shanle making tackels 5-6 yards downfield, you're actually criticising the rest of the defense. Unless he's absolutely getting crushed and dragged that far on a regular basis, what he's actually proving is that he provides solid backside pursuit and is pretty good when it comes to disengaging blockers.

Something to think about as we continue to entertain this arguement.

 

[robsmith32]

think prob on this board, they believe everyone of our players should blow away their one on one battles.. including the 225-235lb LB taking on the 318lb o-lineman.

 

[Eeyore]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to TCUDan again

Thank you for posting about football on a football board during football season.

 

[saints2k8]

Shanle is steady but it seems like he never does anything that stands out. I think he'll rack up 5+ sacks this year and hopefully EA will bump up his rating from 68 to something better. lol

 

[Saint Droopy]

I've been in my share of Shanle discussions, and this is one point that I've never agreed with regarding any linebacker. The 2nd level of the defense is normally about 5 or 6 yards past the LOS. Most LBs make their tackles in that area... now if we were talking about a lineman in tghis sense, then yes that would be a problem.

My issue with Shanle is that you can't really point at one thing and say "yeah he excels at THIS".

- He's not particularly great at shedding blocks at the POA.
- He's not great defending the pass in coverage
- He's not a great pass rusher
- He's not great at making plays as far as causing turnovers.

But the staff feels that he's good (enough) in all of those areas, and I guess I have no other choice but to trust the staff, and hope that HIS role in helping this defense in our quest to miami in February, and in seasons to come.

Good post Dan. I agree 1,000% in what you said.

 

[cdogg]

Understood, but the guy also doesn't make any game changing plays. He is solid, but very upgradeable.

 

[Willie HOU]

I don't agree TCU Dan this guy is a horrible tackler. I can remember a 3rd and forever against carolina a few seasons ago we were down by three points late in the game. All we had to do was make them punt, in fact they played it conservatively by doing a toss sweep. Shanle made it to the corner but bounced off of the Rb and the Rb took it to the house. This raised a flag for me and the flag has not been lowered. I think GW will see over the course of the year.

 

[robsmith32]

I don't agree TCU Dan this guy is a horrible tackler. I can remember a 3rd and forever against carolina a few seasons ago we were down by three points late in the game. All we had to do was make them punt, in fact they played it conservatively by doing a toss sweep. Shanle made it to the corner but bounced off of the Rb and the Rb took it to the house. This raised a flag for me and the flag has not been lowered. I think GW will see over the course of the year.

and if it were our RB, you'd forever hold it against them if a LB drop them? Shanle, doesn't just normally bounce off a LB..
in fact, last years carolina game, how many of our defenders "bounced" off of williams and stewart? think 5 of them did on 1 play... Fujita totally whiffed on E.Graham on his long run.. and he had him dead to rights. Every player has a bad play at sometime.. granted, you want them to make the play most of the time.
if every defender were perfect, there would never be a first down... much less a score. .and it's rare to get a shutout.. offense and defense and special teams are ALL PAID TO PLAY THE GAME

 

[Rice Owl]

Understood, but the guy also doesn't make any game changing plays. He is solid, but very upgradeable.

You can't have Pro Bowlers at every position. Shanle is a glue guy. He does his job and he does it well. You try to upgrade your liabilities first - you don't fix what isn't broken.

Now, I have no problem with bringing in young talent to develop behind Shanle or experienced talent to push/help Shanle, but to suggest that he needs to be upgraded simply because he himself doesn't make game changing plays is cutting the nose in spite of the face.

 

[Galbreath34]

At least in Madden 10 dude is money, he's all over if you run a lot of 43 and nickel.

 

[DMaestro]

So you see, the point is that 9/10 when a tackle is made at the 2nd level of the defense, the defender who made the tackle is not the one at fault.

I don't think people are blaming Shanle for making tackles at the 2nd level, I think people are underwhelmed because he doesn't seem to make enough plays at the 1st level to offset the perception that all his tackles are downfield.

In other words, he doesn't often shoot gaps, chase down backs for minimal gain off backside pursuit, or get sacks, pressures, or knockdowns. He's not a very disruptive player at a position where many fans expect a player to be.

 

[robsmith32]

and another point about even great players, don't make every play.. even the heralded Vilma, went to sack a qb, and looked like a dang horseshoe spinning around the qb.. the QB of all people.. QB just stood there and threw the ball, as if he wasn't even there.

 

[mister pc]

I don't think people are blaming Shanle for making tackles at the 2nd level, I think people are underwhelmed because he doesn't seem to make enough plays at the 1st level to offset the perception that all his tackles are downfield.

In other words, he doesn't often shoot gaps, chase down backs for minimal gain off backside pursuit, or get sacks, pressures, or knockdowns. He's not a very disruptive player at a position where many fans expect a player to be.

yes.

to the op: while i can appreciate your efforts to come to Shanle's defense, if you are saying that an LB should not be expected to make tackles at or behind the LOS.... then its no wonder you are so pleased with Shanle's performance.

 

[crosswatt]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to TCUDan again

 

[mister pc]

You can't have Pro Bowlers at every position. Shanle is a glue guy. He does his job and he does it well. You try to upgrade your liabilities first - you don't fix what isn't broken.

Now, I have no problem with bringing in young talent to develop behind Shanle or experienced talent to push/help Shanle, but to suggest that he needs to be upgraded simply because he himself doesn't make game changing plays is cutting the nose in spite of the face.

to improve a team you want to upgrade the weakest position. Given the current roster, it looks to me like that would be OLB. could be wrong but i dont think our LBs have stuck fear in the hearts of many offenses during the time Shanle has been starting.