Some nations ground 737 Max 8 planes after second catastrophic crash in five months (1 Viewer)

[Bill]

At this point, it’s a huge gamble for Boeing and the FAA. If a domestic Max flight crashes or has a serious incident, there will be absolute hell to pay. They must be confident it won’t be a problem for US pilots . . . or foolish to the point of reckless.

The tort liability alone would be dramatic - as the facts support enhanced culpability (willful conduct versus ordinary negligence).

Not to make light of the seriousness of this situation or the fatalities in these recent crashes, but Boeing and the US air carriers seem to be trying to 'prove by example' that there is no reason to destroy the reputation of the aircraft because of these incidents.

Their position is similar to the way LSU basketball fans wished Joe Alleva had handled the scrutiny of the NCAA and the sports media in the Wade case. The rest of the aviation world has definitely succumbed to popular opinion and thrown their 'workhorse' into the fire. But domestically aviation interests are standing by the fleet of 737s in hopes that others will realize that their fears are unfounded.

 

[mt15]

US has decided to join the rest of the world and ground these planes.

 

[Brad Mojo]

Not crashing is one of the main features I look for in a plane.

 

[Rickboy]

Trump is making the right decision IMO. I think the planes are still safe but the perception isn't good at all. Also, this will put a bigger boot up Boeing's but to get to the bottom of this.

Meanwhile, I'm trying to decide when to buy Boeing stock because it's tanking hard and there is no way it's going to stay there.

 

[MLU]

I'll be curious to learn where the pressure is coming from. It's certainly not Trump's decision. He just gets to make the speech.

I have read that Boeing is on track to have new training materials and software out in April. I haven't read anything yet that suggests their working on any kind of a fix outside of a software update. It''s rare that the US is the last to do anything when it comes to aviation safety. The FAA has a track records of running the world's complex, busiest and safest airspace and that's not by accident.

On March 13, 2019, the investigation of the ET302 crash developed new information from the wreckage concerning the aircraft’s configuration just after takeoff that, taken together with newly refined data from satellite-based tracking of the aircraft’s flight path, indicates some similarities between the ET302 and JT610 accidents that warrant further investigation of the possibility of a shared cause for the two incidents that needs to be better understood and addressed. Accordingly, the Acting Administrator is ordering all Boeing 737 MAX airplanes to be grounded pending further investigation."

https://www.faa.gov/news/updates/media/Emergency_Order.pdf

 

[DCSaints_Fan]

Basic flight control should not be this hard.

If I'm the pilot, I should be able to control the aircraft. I shouldn't have to mess with switches and fight the autopilot. Autopilot should automatically disengage if I give it input.

 

[Saint_Ward]

South West Airlines, every single flight that has a 737 MAX 8 listed as the aircraft is currently listed as "sold out". I'm looking at flights a month out. It's crazy.

I'm guessing this will settle down in a couple days.

 

[superchuck500]

James Fallows at Atlantic telling the world what our SR experts said days ago on this thread. It never ceases to amaze me the quality of information and insight we get on so many different topics and issues here at SR.

Y’all all are best. All of you. One day it’s this - the next day it’s something else. But the chances are, we’ve got it covered!

'Don’t Ground the Airplanes. Ground the Pilots.'

I talked to a highly experienced pilot about the problem with the Boeing 737 Max 8.

www.theatlantic.com

 

[MLU]

Basic flight control should not be this hard.

If I'm the pilot, I should be able to control the aircraft. I shouldn't have to mess with switches and fight the autopilot. Autopilot should automatically disengage if I give it input.

This far from basic flight control. This is something new for the B737, but it appears that either Boeing, the airlines, the pilot training groups or all three did not emphasize it enough in training. This is why Boeing has committed to supplying new training materials and software by April.

I have seen nothing that suggests there is an issue with the autopilot. There does not appear to be an issue with MCAS. Automation systems are in place to ease the workload of the pilot because flying a commercial airliner is a ridiculously complex thing to do and without them, there might be only a handful of people in the world capable of flying them. Of that handful, none of them would be able to do it for long periods of time, through less than perfect weather or frequently. It would be physically and mentally exhausting. "Messing with switches" is the job description. It doesn't fly itself, despite jokes to the contrary.

Components, systems, etc. fail in flight all the time. That's why they have redundancy. That's why they have vetted resolutions to just about an possible problem. That's why they have regulations that provide guidelines. That's why the have training. That's why the have recurrent training. That's why the have training bulletins. It's up to the air carrier as well as the individual to determine the level of vigilance to avoid complacency and maintain competence however, not the aircraft manufacturer.

Chances are that the MCAS system itself is not the problem. It is likely just responding to the way it is deciphering the data... which is possibly a software issue. But if the data from the AOA sensor is erratic (for whatever reason) or if it is outside the parameters the software needs to operate/adjust properly, then the whole system needs to be evaluated for where the discrepancies are occurring. There is certainly ample reason to make sure they figure it out and get it right sooner than later.

Or you could disengage the MCAS and troubleshoot the AOA sensor when it lands.

 

[MLU]

I still think it's not necessary to ground the fleet. If airlines are not 100% convinced their pilot group is competent, they should provide training/re-training on the necessary systems. Then, no pilot is allowed to sit up front on a B73M until they have been signed off. Grounding the fleet is a political message and has nothing to do with safety unless there is actually something wrong with the aircraft. If there was, I'd think you have more than two incidents on non-US/EU air carriers who just started flying the model.

 

[Bill]

Or you could disengage the MCAS and troubleshoot the AOA sensor when it lands.

Too bad this simple solution wasn't considered by two flight crews along with their doomed passengers. Someone dropped the ball on this important procedure. It should have been obvious to anyone/everyone who sits behind that control yoke.

 

[MLU]

Too bad this simple solution wasn't considered by two flight crews along with their doomed passengers. Someone dropped the ball on this important procedure. It should have been obvious to anyone/everyone who sits behind that control yoke.

I mean, I make it sound much simpler than it is from behind the yoke while you can't understand why the aircraft wants to put you in the ground. However, I am not a trained airman with 5,000+ hours in the cockpit of commercial aircraft either. Three of the four pilots involved in those two accidents had flying time in the thousands of hours. I'm sure that's total time. I don't know the breakdown of type, multi, etc.

 

[Bill]

I mean, I make it sound much simpler than it is from behind the yoke while you can't understand why the aircraft wants to put you in the ground. However, I am not a trained airman with 5,000+ hours in the cockpit of commercial aircraft either. Three of the four pilots involved in those two accidents had flying time in the thousands of hours. I'm sure that's total time. I don't know the breakdown of type, multi, etc.

It means a lot when a pilot has a significant amount of his total time in type. When a pilot knows an aircraft like the back of his hand a lot of things that can go wrong are understood immediately with very little mental questioning regarding the response from the aircraft.

Had this shutdown procedure been something that was reinforced in the thinking of the pilots, it would likely have been something that was instantly recognized and the corrective action taken rather than have an entire crew trying to ride a 'bucking bronco' back to the airport. A nice (mandatory) simulator training program would have worked wonders in the case of these two crashes.

How sad.

 

[staphory]

It means a lot when a pilot has a significant amount of his total time in type. When a pilot knows an aircraft like the back of his hand a lot of things that can go wrong are understood immediately with very little mental questioning regarding the response from the aircraft.

Had this shutdown procedure been something that was reinforced in the thinking of the pilots, it would likely have been something that was instantly recognized and the corrective action taken rather than have an entire crew trying to ride a 'bucking bronco' back to the airport. A nice (mandatory) simulator training program would have worked wonders in the case of these two crashes.

How sad.

But that highlights in my mind the need for the airline to provide that training. I just don’t believe that there is anyone out there flying this aircraft, after Lion Air, who didn’t know about the potential problem with MCAS. If nothing else, turn it off.
I saw a story yesterday that said the aircraft was going unusually fast. They said abnormally fast, which suggests that something else was going on.
Could be here say though.

 

[Bill]

I just don’t believe that there is anyone out there flying this aircraft, after Lion Air, who didn’t know about the potential problem with MCAS. If nothing else, turn it off.

If everyone was aware after the Lion Air crash, what made the Ethiopian Air crew wrestle with the aircraft and not just disable the MCAS? Yeah, I realize that they should have known about this pitching issue, but perhaps they needed more than just a bulletin to make sure that every Max pilot not only experienced this issue in simulation, but was taught to instantly take the correct steps to win over the erratic aircraft.