Star Wars Question (1 Viewer)

[UncleTrvlingJim]

I think it depends on what you’re looking for. I think 7&8 were significantly better than any of the prequels but not as good as Rogue One or Empire.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

I think it depends on what you’re looking for. I think 7&8 were significantly better than any of the prequels but not as good as Rogue One or Empire.

I agree with this

 

[Sun Wukong]

I don't hate the prequels, but I concede they are not well made films. The writing, acting, dialogue etc. is obviously bad. But I have softened a lot on them over the years, probably due to how well done the Clone Wars animated series was. So I have assimilated them into Star Wars canon for what they are and just leave it at that.

The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi are technically superior films to the prequels. The Force Awakens' biggest crime is adhering too closely to A New Hope's plot and basically having what amounts to another bigger Death Star, but overall I think it succeeded in what it was trying to do and a lot of the hate it's been getting the past couple of years is retroactive. People being P'Oed about The Last Jedi and suddenly they despise The Force Awakens now, too, despite it having a pretty solid reception initially.

That said, The Last Jedi is a truly abysmal film. I was ambivalent about it when I first saw it but those mixed feelings have turned pretty much completely negative with subsequent viewings. I won't air my grievances in full, but I will just say that I don't think it earns any of its big moments (the speech Yoda gives Luke about students growing beyond their masters would make a lot more sense if Luke had known Rey and/or trained her for longer than like two days, for example), it actually does very little to advance the sequel trilogy's plot (the entire Canto Bight subplot is meaningless to the overall story. Finn and Rose accomplish nothing. Rey gets a few minor lessons in being a Jedi. Luke is back off the board almost as quickly as he was reintroduced, etc.), it feels very minor in the grand scheme, and instead of feeling like a full second act of a grand story feels like a weird, under-cooked suffix to The Force Awakens. Which makes the heavy lifting The Rise of Skywalker has to do all that more difficult. The Last Jedi was basically two hours of runtime and story development squandered in what felt more like an episode of a TV show than the second act of a major film trilogy.

But some rumors about Rise of Skywalker (won't spoil anything), make it sound like some elements of The Last Jedi may have to be looked at differently in the context of a finished story, so I will remain open minded. Perhaps they can weave it all together. I don't hate the Disney Star Wars movies (I genuinely enjoy TFA, Rogue One, and Solo.), and a lot of the wider hate is born out of the psychotic hatred of The Last Jedi (I do not like the film, but my reasons have nothing to do with the reasons of the people who are STILL churning out hate bait YouTube videos about feminism and Kelly Marie Tran and whatever other stalkerish things they won't let go.), but I still feel like it's a fanbase that's heavily fractured and probably won't ever be unified again.

 

[OutlawSaint]

At first glance of the title, I thought you were asking us lol Like who knew Anakin was Vader while watching the original trilogy when it first came out.

 

[DCSaints_Fan]

I know that this question may have answers in the comics and books of the extended universe (now legends) and different answers from the books, shows and comics of the new Disney canon

But the question is this?

Who knew that Darth Vader was Anakin Skywalker when Vader was still alive?

We know the obvious ones

The Emperor

Obi-Wan Kenobi

Yoda

Luke and Leia

I just finished one of Timothy Zahn’s new Thrawn books - Grand Admiral Thrawn figured it out

But beyond that?

Uncle Owen & Aunt Beru?

Maybe, maybe not

There was that look between the two of them when a Luke says he wished he knew his father

The look could be because they know about Vader or it could be we know his father is still alive and we’ve been lying to him his whole life and if Luke ever finds out we’re in deep shirt

Beru says Luke has too much of his father in him and Owen responds that’s what I’m afraid of

That makes more sense if they knew of Anakin’s fate

What did Obi Wan tell them?

Bail Organa?

Again it depends on what Obi Wan and Yoda told him - he knew that the babies were Anakin’s,

did he know about his joining the Dark Side - did anyone know that Anakin had survived at this point?

I think it may have been one of those things that was an "open secret". A small circle of people know,, but nobody talks about it. Kind of like JFK's affair with Marilyn Monroe. Its also in no one's interest, to reveal Vader's identity yet.

I guess its a good thing the Star Wars universe didn't have cable news or the Internet.

(Side Question- immediately after Revenge of the
Sith Kenobi went to Tatooine and Yoda went to Dagobah, doesn’t look like either had much contact with the outside after that

how did they know Vader survived and what he became? Just sensing through the Force?)

Grand Moff Tarkin?

Seemed chummy with Vader

“You my friend are all that’s left of their religion”

Vader has friends? Would friends know his secret? Like Batman knowing Superman is Clark Kent?

Tarkin also seemed to have power over him

“Enough of this! Vader! Release him!”

“I’m taking an awful risk Vader, this had better work”

Or else what? Who talks to Darth Vader like that?

R2D2?

Was his memory wiped when 3POs was at the end of Revenge of the Sith?

A plausible explanation was that Moff Tarkin was as close to the Emperor as Vader was. His ties may have very well gone back to the days of the Republic before Vader even knew Senator Palpatine.

Vader, while being outside the official military command structure, nonetheless wielded tremendous power and could easily order around stormtroopers and other lower ranking officers.

A parallel would be something like in Germany WW2. Moff Tarken would be someone like Erich von Manstein, while Vader would be like Henrich Himmler. If Himmler shows up to the front, he isn't just going to start bossing around Manstein and messing with his direct subordinates.

Notice Tarkin lets Vader force choke that guy for a bit. But then orders him to release him. And beyond that, there is no further reprimand "This bickering is pointless" . What Tarkin is doing is basically saying, "Well he insulted you so go ahead and punch him in the mouth, but actually killing him is going to far"

 

[saint_drago]

There was the potential for a decent story there given the basic plot structure but the writing and directing was just horrible.

Lol you think?! The story of how Anakin Skywalker became Darth Vader and how the Jedi were destroyed! Yeah, that could've been a decent story.

I remember the time before the prequels happened, back when there were just whispers about prequels. It didn't seem like it was going to happen considering the amount of time that had passed. But that was a special time because the idea of the prequels was so awesome.

One day they're going to have to reboot the whole deal. I'm hoping we get another shot at seeing Anakin become Vader, but just in a much, much different way.

 

[DCSaints_Fan]

Lol you think?! The story of how Anakin Skywalker became Darth Vader and how the Jedi were destroyed! Yeah, that could've been a decent story.

I remember the time before the prequels happened, back when there were just whispers about prequels. It didn't seem like it was going to happen considering the amount of time that had passed. But that was a special time because the idea of the prequels was so awesome.

One day they're going to have to reboot the whole deal. I'm hoping we get another shot at seeing Anakin become Vader, but just in a much, much different way.

There was a fair amount of criticism over the basic story of the prequeles. My point was more that, they could have made it work, without any huge changes in plot/story. While I suppose you could say that about any story (I"m thinking of a quote here about there really only being three types of story, but can't find a good reference), I think its a point that needs to be made. Episode One would have been the hardest, but even there it was possible.

Let me give an example from Episode One, Darth Maul, and especially the fight between Obi-Wan and Qui-Gonn Jinn at the end. Can you remember any dialog from that fight? The only thing I can recall is Qui-Gonn telling Obi-Wan that Anakin had to be trained before buying it. OK. But that had nothing to do with the fight.

Let's compare that scene with the original trilogy. Whenever there is a lightsaber fight, it always had context and meaning. The actors even summarize what the fight meant, based on the dialog that happened during or shortly after the fight:

ANH: Obi-Wan: "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine."

ESB: Vader: "Luke, I am your father"

RoTJ: Luke: (to the Emperor): "You've lost. I'll never join the Dark Side"

Now try to do the same with the Darth Maul scene. You can't, because Darth Maul wasn't an interesting or compelling character. He's not an interesting or compelling character because we only know him as a generic bad guy with a weird red-and-black painted face and horns who says "Yes, master". Therefore, the fight isn't meaningful, its just a spectacle of martial-arts/lightsaber porn.

A better director might have realized this, and given Darth Maul actual dialog and screen time to set up him as villain/nemesis. Such that the fight at the end has some context and meaning the audience can actually appreciate.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

There was a fair amount of criticism over the basic story of the prequeles. My point was more that, they could have made it work, without any huge changes in plot/story. While I suppose you could say that about any story (I"m thinking of a quote here about there really only being three types of story, but can't find a good reference), I think its a point that needs to be made. Episode One would have been the hardest, but even there it was possible.

Let me give an example from Episode One, Darth Maul, and especially the fight between Obi-Wan and Qui-Gonn Jinn at the end. Can you remember any dialog from that fight? The only thing I can recall is Qui-Gonn telling Obi-Wan that Anakin had to be trained before buying it. OK. But that had nothing to do with the fight.

Let's compare that scene with the original trilogy. Whenever there is a lightsaber fight, it always had context and meaning. The actors even summarize what the fight meant, based on the dialog that happened during or shortly after the fight:

ANH: Obi-Wan: "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine."

ESB: Vader: "Luke, I am your father"

RoTJ: Luke: (to the Emperor): "You've lost. I'll never join the Dark Side"

Now try to do the same with the Darth Maul scene. You can't, because Darth Maul wasn't an interesting or compelling character. He's not an interesting or compelling character because we only know him as a generic bad guy with a weird red-and-black painted face and horns who says "Yes, master". Therefore, the fight isn't meaningful, its just a spectacle of martial-arts/lightsaber porn.

A better director might have realized this, and given Darth Maul actual dialog and screen time to set up him as villain/nemesis. Such that the fight at the end has some context and meaning the audience can actually appreciate.

very good point
but also
my wife is a way bigger star wars fan than i am and her first (of many) complaints about the prequels is "senators make crappy action figures"
it was always going to be hard to pull of the premise, and Lucas was never going to be the one to pull it off

 

[Scorpius the Allfather]

I'm fine with the basic plot being that Anakin turns in order to save Padme. I don't like how it was done. It was too sudden. He goes from basically good Jedi to slaughtering a bunch of kids in like 2 minutes. I don't think the sand people scene in Ep2 really counts for much. Also didn't he think just maybe Padme isn't going to want anything to do with me after I turn against the Jedi and slaughter a bunch of kids.

He had already slaughtered kids and she didn't leave him over it.

 

[GeauxWhoDats]

Page 3 you say?

Umm excuse me one second.

Pardon me, Excuse me, Pardon me. I just need to get to the front for a second.

*clears throat*

 

[Optimus Prime]

I’d be hard pressed to tell you what the plot of phantom menace actually was

Something about a treaty and trade federation and an invasion

 

[Dago]

Once again, you all completely ignore Marcia Lucas's influence on George Lucas.

She had a large amount of input on the writing and directing as well as editing until after Empire. We saw what a step down Return was without Marcia...the fact that it was as good as it was is only because he was just sweeping up and ending something that was 66% done already.

When he started from scratch on the prequels without Marcia he failed miserably

 

[Optimus Prime]

I wasn’t the only one wondering about this

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

I don't hate the prequels, but I concede they are not well made films. The writing, acting, dialogue etc. is obviously bad. But I have softened a lot on them over the years, probably due to how well done the Clone Wars animated series was. So I have assimilated them into Star Wars canon for what they are and just leave it at that.

When's the last time you watched them. I ask, because I just made the mistake of watching 1 & 3 again very recently, and they're even worse than I remember. Like you, I really enjoyed the Clone Wars animated series, and my memory of how much I disliked the prequels had softened. They were terrible. Just unwatchable in terms of dialogue, directing and acting. Even the narrative arc was just meh. If you don't hate them, I suggest never watching them again to preserve that lack of emotion.

On the flip side, I kind of liked The Last Jedi (I rank it somewhere in the middle). I get what your saying about unearned moments (like Yoda's line), which I agree with. But I still found it enjoyable and really appreciate what Johnson was trying to do. I had a bigger issue with The Force Awakens, which was probably better from a cohesive standpoint, but was not very imaginative in the story it was trying to tell, and I think that led to issues in The Last Jedi.

That being said, I rewatch both movies occasionally, which I can't do with the prequels.

I think Star Wars has done much better with it's animated series and comics though.

 

[DCSaints_Fan]

He had already slaughtered kids and she didn't leave him over it.

Are you referring to the massacre of the sand people? I can't recall their being child sand people there, although I suppose you can infer it. But on a certain level, it counts for little. The only thing we know about the sand people is they go around enslaving/torturing people.