Survivor 20: Heroes vs Villains (1 Viewer)

purvis_guy

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It is on right now, what a great group of survivors:
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HEROES
Rupert Boneham, 45; Indianapolis; "Pearl Islands," "All-Stars"
James Clement, 32; Lafayette, La.; "China," "Micronesia"
Colby Donaldson, 35; Christoval, Texas; "The Australian Outback," "All-Stars"
Cirie Fields, 39; Jersey City, N.J.; "Panama," "Micronesia"
Amanda Kimmel, 24; Kalispell, Mont.; "China," "Micronesia"
Jessica "Sugar" Kiper, 29; Baton Rouge, La.; "Gabon"
Stephenie LaGrossa, 29; Glenolden, Pa.; "Palau," "Guatemala"
James "J.T." Thomas Jr., 25; Samson, Ala.; "Tocantins"
Tom Westman, 45; New York; "Palau"
Candice Woodcock, 27; Fayetteville, N.C.; "Cook Islands"
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VILLAINS
Tyson Apostol, 30; Lindon, Utah; Tocantins"
Randy Bailey, 50; Austin, Texas; "Gabon"
Danielle DiLorenzo, 26, Boston; "Panama"
Russell Hantz, 37; Dayton, Texas, "Samoa"
Jerri Manthey, 38; Los Angeles; "The Australian Outback," "All-Stars"
Robert "Boston Rob" Mariano, 33; Boston; "Marquesas," "All-Stars"
Parvati Shallow, 27; Vero Beach, Fla.; "Cook Islands," "Micronesia"
Sandra Diaz-Twine, 34; Stamford, Conn.; "Pearl Islands"
Benjamin "Coach" Wade, 38; Susanville, Calif.; "Tocantins"
Courtney Yates, 28; Boston; "China"
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Should be a great season!
 

Ti Rider

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My take - don't get me wrong Russell is the greatest tactical player to ever play the game BUT that is just one aspect of a complex game. Russell is completely Machiavellian in his approach to the game (ithe ends always justified the means). He completely missed (and still has no concept of) the "social" strategy in the game. Parvati is clearly the greatest "social" player of the game. Her ability to immediately recognize and then latch on to the strongest players is impressive. She also appears weak and a non threat in the challenges early then upped her efforts as the game progressed.

Survivor does have a problem. The players that should be winning aren't.....the Sandra "strategy" - just make it to the final three without doing, winning, or scheming anything, relyig on luck that your name never came is garbage and infuriates the audience. The "houseplant" strategy is what I call it. Basically in the jury the jurors think - "Well Russell stabbed me in the back, Parvati rode Russell's coattails, but the houseplant just blended in and was non offensive so I'll give it the money". Sandra won a million dollars twice for nothing more than her ability not to stand out. That ruins an otherwise interesting show........
 

seagull

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All Sandra did was "Outlast", did not like her the whole season, if I was on the Jury my vote would be a total effort and not a my feeling got hurt vote. Sandra got the Hero's vote with her one attempt to warn them about Russel being the lead dog for the Villians. If Russel is on again and does not take an aggressive mean player with him to the end, he deserves to loose. Russel laid it on the line how he played the game, but the Jury was still mad at him and even Parvity said she would have voted for Sandra, if she got the last boot.
 

BIG E

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I think within the next couple of seasons they bring back Rob and Russel and put them on opposing teams.
 
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I think you might be right Big E. I kind of think Russel was a bit handicapped in that he didn't have time to think back about the first season before going again. He used the exact same strategy and was maybe even more brutal. If he'd had some time, he may have tweaked his strat a bit.
 

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<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name="ProgId" content="Word.Document"><meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 11"><meta name="Originator" content="Microsoft Word 11"><link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CMBrack%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:punctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> I agree that Russel was THE best in working the vote over so he was running the show and would last to the end. His main problem was he could not shut up. The biggest NO NO in survivor is acting cocky. He did it constantly. I like it when he does it for the camera, but not in front of the other contestants. That was the difference in how he played. If he just showed some respect to the other people rather than beat a dead horse, he stood a chance. He wins 100% of the time if he shuts up 75% of the time.
 

seagull

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Russel telling the two woman who would vote for him sure came back to bite him win they let the Jury know how he was bragging about which votes he had secured.
 

SaintsFanInLA

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I know that I am late but have been binge-watching Survivor during this pandemic. I just finished this season. Let me say that Russell should have won both seasons. He was obviously the best player on BOTH of his seasons. He manipulated EVERYONE, won a bunch of challenges, and played the best game. Folks were just emotional at being played. SMH. He was very Machiavellian in his approach and it worked to get to the final tribal council. He was strategic almost to the point of clinical precision, he was tactical, and for them to say he wasn't social, he surely got a lot of people to do EXACTLY what he wanted them to do.

But let me just say that Jeff Probst is a jerk. He strikes me as a guy who was bullied in high school and FINALLY finds himself in a position of power and lords it over EVERYONE. He is extremely condescending and HAS to show that he is in control. It is my purely non-clinical position that he is a narcissist with incredible insecurity and self-esteem issues.
 

Saintslfc13

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I know that I am late but have been binge-watching Survivor during this pandemic. I just finished this season. Let me say that Russell should have won both seasons. He was obviously the best player on BOTH of his seasons. He manipulated EVERYONE, won a bunch of challenges, and played the best game. Folks were just emotional at being played. SMH. He was very Machiavellian in his approach and it worked to get to the final tribal council. He was strategic almost to the point of clinical precision, he was tactical, and for them to say he wasn't social, he surely got a lot of people to do EXACTLY what he wanted them to do.

But let me just say that Jeff Probst is a jerk. He strikes me as a guy who was bullied in high school and FINALLY finds himself in a position of power and lords it over EVERYONE. He is extremely condescending and HAS to show that he is in control. It is my purely non-clinical position that he is a narcissist with incredible insecurity and self-esteem issues.
I've always thought Russell Hantz had a case for the GOAT despite not winning, but it's true that socially he rubbed a lot of people the wrong way to say the least. In his first season in particular he had no other choice but to play that game, which is why I found that particular bitter jury so infuriating. He was ostracized pretty early and found other players in similar circumstances to team up with as needed, most of which felt they were just using him rather than the other way around, and got himself to the end. In HvV he had an opportunity to play differently, especially when the Heroes threw him a bone, but of course he was in control on his side unbeknownst to them and if I remember correctly HvV was directly after his first season. So basically what got him to the end the first time worked again, arguably even better, and he was playing with other people that had played. Some of those people had won before so you would expect them to respect his game a little more understanding how hard it is to get there, even more so in an all-star season. The problem is that most of them got their feelings hurt and so they voted for Sandra, who for me was the least deserving of the three.

His third time he didn't stand a chance as his tribe never trusted him at all but they also knew he was capable of playing a high level game from the position so they threw that challenge to vote him out pre-merge and then the wheels fell off for all of them, which I admit I quite enjoyed. I think throwing a challenge is absolutely stupid, particularly when you have a chance to crush the other tribe so profoundly. Even if he made the merge, they almost certainly could've got him out as soon as he didn't have an idol. Boston Rob on the other side got a group of fanboys and fangirls then turned them into a Hero cult where he was the hero. So even though he betrayed quite a few people who thought they had a legitimate relationship with him it was looked at as "Oh that's just Rob being Rob making all-star moves". Rob definitely deserved to win that season but he got really lucky with the people on his tribe. A guy literally stood up during the jury interviews (it was still the old jury format) instead of asking anything lawyered for the jury not to be bitter towards Rob. That level of manipulation is definitely admirable in this game but I've always thought it took a lot of compliance from them as well, the same game with a different group of people sitting over there and he doesn't win. Coach had something similar going on in another season but because he openly brought prayer into it people turned on him.
 

SaintsFanInLA

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I've always thought Russell Hantz had a case for the GOAT despite not winning, but it's true that socially he rubbed a lot of people the wrong way to say the least. In his first season in particular he had no other choice but to play that game, which is why I found that particular bitter jury so infuriating. He was ostracized pretty early and found other players in similar circumstances to team up with as needed, most of which felt they were just using him rather than the other way around, and got himself to the end. In HvV he had an opportunity to play differently, especially when the Heroes threw him a bone, but of course he was in control on his side unbeknownst to them and if I remember correctly HvV was directly after his first season. So basically what got him to the end the first time worked again, arguably even better, and he was playing with other people that had played. Some of those people had won before so you would expect them to respect his game a little more understanding how hard it is to get there, even more so in an all-star season. The problem is that most of them got their feelings hurt and so they voted for Sandra, who for me was the least deserving of the three.

His third time he didn't stand a chance as his tribe never trusted him at all but they also knew he was capable of playing a high level game from the position so they threw that challenge to vote him out pre-merge and then the wheels fell off for all of them, which I admit I quite enjoyed. I think throwing a challenge is absolutely stupid, particularly when you have a chance to crush the other tribe so profoundly. Even if he made the merge, they almost certainly could've got him out as soon as he didn't have an idol. Boston Rob on the other side got a group of fanboys and fangirls then turned them into a Hero cult where he was the hero. So even though he betrayed quite a few people who thought they had a legitimate relationship with him it was looked at as "Oh that's just Rob being Rob making all-star moves". Rob definitely deserved to win that season but he got really lucky with the people on his tribe. A guy literally stood up during the jury interviews (it was still the old jury format) instead of asking anything lawyered for the jury not to be bitter towards Rob. That level of manipulation is definitely admirable in this game but I've always thought it took a lot of compliance from them as well, the same game with a different group of people sitting over there and he doesn't win. Coach had something similar going on in another season but because he openly brought prayer into it people turned on him.
I buy every bit of what you're selling. And Sandra didn't deserve to win either title, if you are going by who played a better game. She won zero challenges, but she did tell the heroes the truth and they chose to ignore it to their peril.

As a side not, I din't like Parvati in either of the seasons I saw her in. But her playing Russell for the immunity idol was a pretty big deal. She basically sank the heroes battleship with that double idol play and she didn't even use one on herself. It was a genius move.
 

Saintslfc13

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I buy every bit of what you're selling. And Sandra didn't deserve to win either title, if you are going by who played a better game. She won zero challenges, but she did tell the heroes the truth and they chose to ignore it to their peril.

As a side not, I din't like Parvati in either of the seasons I saw her in. But her playing Russell for the immunity idol was a pretty big deal. She basically sank the heroes battleship with that double idol play and she didn't even use one on herself. It was a genius move.
I don't really remember Parvati's first season so that's all I will say about it. In HvV she absolutely deserved it more than Sandra. She made that huge move you said and whilst she kinda rode Russell's wake a bit she also helped him and therefore herself progress through the game. I suppose that's why she lost though, she was seen as Russell's right hand woman and therefore the Jury wouldn't vote for her. I think the bitter jury has become less prevalent recently, certainly when returning players are involved. That was the reason I thought Sarah's speech in this most recent iteration about females being treated differently when they're cutthroat a bit off, not off-putting, just missing the mark. I don't follow the cast after the game ends so I don't really know what she went through and I'll take her word for it but for me most fans like players like her. Most of us like it when they make the pragmatic decisions that are borderline unethical, maybe it burns a bridge or two personally, but ultimately gets them that W. Some of the most celebrated players of the game are women, but yet they were good at the game and the fans give them their dues. Maybe they're perceived as "Villains" but so are some of the most celebrated men. To be fair though, that's also why I don't think I would ever submit myself for Survivor or Big Brother. Public opinion is a fickle thing and what gets one person celebrated could get the next person ostracized from society, or at the least the social media universe which probably shouldn't be a problem but in today's society obviously can be. I think that she is a police officer also hurt her in that regard, I'm surprised public employees ever even go on these kind of shows.
 

FullMonte

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The biggest problem with Russel's gameplay was that he never (even after multiple attempts to play the game) grasped a simple concept.

When you get to the end, there will be a group of people who you voted out of the game who are going to decide on who should win. You can't win the game without figuring out a way to convince those people to vote for you. So, when you dismiss them and are insulting to them, you aren't going to win. There is a social element to the game that is critical, and Russell denied that was important.
 

SaintsFanInLA

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The biggest problem with Russel's gameplay was that he never (even after multiple attempts to play the game) grasped a simple concept.

When you get to the end, there will be a group of people who you voted out of the game who are going to decide on who should win. You can't win the game without figuring out a way to convince those people to vote for you. So, when you dismiss them and are insulting to them, you aren't going to win. There is a social element to the game that is critical, and Russell denied that was important.
You are correct. And for the record, I think Russell is a narcissistic, misogynistic man with a Napoleonic complex but everyone whose ever won the game lied and misled people.

Do you think Parvati and Sandra played better games?
 

FullMonte

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You are correct. And for the record, I think Russell is a narcissistic, misogynistic man with a Napoleonic complex but everyone whose ever won the game lied and misled people.

Do you think Parvati and Sandra played better games?
I think Parvati played an amazing game on that season. Her problem was she was aligned with Russell, so she got lumped in with him, and everyone who hated Russell hated her as well. I think, realistically, she should have won that season.

As for if Sandra played a better game, I don't know which season you are talking about, but the answer is no. I don't think Sandra has ever played a good season of Survivor. She won the game twice because she said "I'll vote for whoever you want, as long as it's not me," and made it to the end with someone who the jury would not vote for. They wouldn't vote for Lil because she had already been voted out, and they would not vote for a returning player to win the game. They wouldn't vote for Russell (and by proxy Parvarti) because they couldn't stand him.
 

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