Taysom Hill - Lisfranc injury (1 Viewer)

So, in Loomis you Trust, or nah?

I trust Loomis and I think he can work around any cap issues that we have. But, that doesn't mean it's impossible for him to make mistakes regarding the value of a player or pay a player over what his actual production is. I think he rarely makes those mistakes, but it does happen. Look at Peat. He's a good Guard, but due to circumstances, we had to pay him like an elite Guard. Colby Fleener is another example.
 
I trust Loomis and I think he can work around any cap issues that we have. But, that doesn't mean it's impossible for him to make mistakes regarding the value of a player or pay a player over what his actual production is. I think he rarely makes those mistakes, but it does happen. Look at Peat. He's a good Guard, but due to circumstances, we had to pay him like an elite Guard. Colby Fleener is another example.
Good points. We all make mistakes, even the pros. Galette was another huge mistake. They hit far more than they miss, and I’m thankful for that.
 
I trust Loomis and I think he can work around any cap issues that we have. But, that doesn't mean it's impossible for him to make mistakes regarding the value of a player or pay a player over what his actual production is. I think he rarely makes those mistakes, but it does happen. Look at Peat. He's a good Guard, but due to circumstances, we had to pay him like an elite Guard. Colby Fleener is another example.
Unfortunately nothing is 100% in terms of those decisions. What Loomis and Company have done is hit on a high percentage of their FA's and draft picks and they have stayed true to their draft philosophy year in and year out. We are a consitently winning franchise because of those decisions, even factoring in the occasional mistake. I'll take him over virtually any GM in the NFL.
 
I think Hill's contract is clearly higher than it should be, but as you suggested, that all goes back the the 1st round tender they originally gave him. That moved the last contract up, along with the fact that we had a real QB competition at the time and Hill was thought to be the possible longish term staring QB. Now that he has lost the starting QB battle, the numbers seem worse, but the team didn't want to take the $10 million in dead cap space that letting his contract expire would have brought. Yes, had they waited until the offseason they would have gotten a better deal, especially with the injury, but that' hindsight and at the time it seemed to be the best move to avoid more dead cap and start getting next season's cap number down. But, it obviously didn't work out too well.

Anyway, Hill is overpaid and I'll ignore his Joker role since the real value of that role is just to help create mismatches which could be done cheaper. To me, Hill's biggest value is that he can be your backup QB and he can run Wildcat plays that get you first downs and touchdowns in short yardage. It's part of why before this season, we were so good in short yardage and in scoring TDs in the red zone. Hill's injuries really hurt us in those situation. I also think the Saints' ability to go to the Wildcat and Read Option game with Hill was a good way for them to get some defenses out of rhythm when the offense was struggling. And, it often resulted in scoring drives.

Now, is that worth what he is getting paid? No. But when you add that to him also being a backup QB, it's not as huge of a cost/benefit hole as it would be if he was just a backup QB or just a Joker player with his level of production.
Exactly, Loomis can free up $60-70 mil by restructuring 6-7 contracts By converting salary to signing bonuses like we always do (kick the can). We can easily free up another $12-15 mil by extending a few key players or post June 1st cuts.

Top 51 counts against the cap so I believe we are at $259 mil as of today for our top 51. Still $51 mil over the projected $208 cap but we will have plenty of flexibility to re-sign Winston and be players in FA. Bottom line is Taysoms contract might not be the best but TH7s contract DID NOT cripple us
 
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I trust Loomis and I think he can work around any cap issues that we have. But, that doesn't mean it's impossible for him to make mistakes regarding the value of a player or pay a player over what his actual production is. I think he rarely makes those mistakes, but it does happen. Look at Peat. He's a good Guard, but due to circumstances, we had to pay him like an elite Guard. Colby Fleener is another example.
For the record, I’m with you, I think Hill’s contract is a bit rich, but at the same time, it doesn’t bother me because a) it’s not my money, and b) I know that this isn’t something Mickey or Hartley are worried about. This isn’t a contract that will kill us, or prevent us from making whatever move we want to make.
 
IMHO comparing Hill to any other player in the league is problematic because his skillset is unique. Cordarrale ( sp.) Patterson and Deebo Samuel can play quarterback? I don't think so. Ty Montgomery can play WR and RB. Hill plays QB, RB including FB, TE, and special teams. And he has played well in those roles, not below average.

It's a bit like comparing Deion Sanders and Bo Jackson to anyone else. What other modern era athletes excelled in two professional sports? Michael Jordan tried and failed. Michael Jordan!

Going back a few decades, Chuck Bednarik started at Center and Middle Linebacker.. Lou Groza played OL and placekicker. Some athletes just have unique skillsets. Taysom Hill is one of them.
 
IMHO comparing Hill to any other player in the league is problematic because his skillset is unique. Cordarrale ( sp.) Patterson and Deebo Samuel can play quarterback? I don't think so. Ty Montgomery can play WR and RB. Hill plays QB, RB including FB, TE, and special teams. And he has played well in those roles, not below average.

It's a bit like comparing Deion Sanders and Bo Jackson to anyone else. What other modern era athletes excelled in two professional sports? Michael Jordan tried and failed. Michael Jordan!

Going back a few decades, Chuck Bednarik started at Center and Middle Linebacker.. Lou Groza played OL and placekicker. Some athletes just have unique skillsets. Taysom Hill is one of them.
Perhaps not at their All Pro levels, but yes, very few guys can do what Taysom does, or perhaps teams don’t view their players like we view Taysom.
 
I think Hill's contract is clearly higher than it should be, but as you suggested, that all goes back the the 1st round tender they originally gave him. That moved the last contract up, along with the fact that we had a real QB competition at the time and Hill was thought to be the possible longish term staring QB. Now that he has lost the starting QB battle, the numbers seem worse, but the team didn't want to take the $10 million in dead cap space that letting his contract expire would have brought. Yes, had they waited until the offseason they would have gotten a better deal, especially with the injury, but that' hindsight and at the time it seemed to be the best move to avoid more dead cap and start getting next season's cap number down. But, it obviously didn't work out too well.

Anyway, Hill is overpaid and I'll ignore his Joker role since the real value of that role is just to help create mismatches which could be done cheaper. To me, Hill's biggest value is that he can be your backup QB and he can run Wildcat plays that get you first downs and touchdowns in short yardage. It's part of why before this season, we were so good in short yardage and in scoring TDs in the red zone. Hill's injuries really hurt us in those situation. I also think the Saints' ability to go to the Wildcat and Read Option game with Hill was a good way for them to get some defenses out of rhythm when the offense was struggling. And, it often resulted in scoring drives.

Now, is that worth what he is getting paid? No. But when you add that to him also being a backup QB, it's not as huge of a cost/benefit hole as it would be if he was just a backup QB or just a Joker player with his level of production.
If you ignore his joker role then you can't really have a valid opinion of his worth. Unless something goes wrong with JW that IS his role and his value. Add the fact that he's also the #2 QB the 5-7 mil he's likely to make it really isn't a terrible deal.
 
The guy he was calling dead wrong had a sound argument. In a moneyball approach, you can recreate Taysom hill in the aggregate for a fraction of his contract. That's not a debate, or even a discussion. The argument guys like DTC make is that the roster spots are a premium. He is worth the money because of the extra roster spots he opens up. Those of us on either side of this debate will never be convinced.

I always assume someone who just post something like "You're wrong", with further thought or discussion is either:

A. Conceited person who thinks they are the only opinion that matters, and by this virtue they may simply declare your opinion worthless.
B. To dumb to come up with an actual counter debate, and falls back on "I'm Rubber, and You're Glue"

Also, the two dudes that actually liked that post? MORONS
The guy I called repeatedly dead wrong posts the same thing over and over. Practice squad players are better than Hill type of stuff. I didn’t go any further because his comments don’t require it.

And if you are calling people morons, seems like you did the exact thing you criticize in your post.
 
IMHO comparing Hill to any other player in the league is problematic because his skillset is unique. Cordarrale ( sp.) Patterson and Deebo Samuel can play quarterback? I don't think so. Ty Montgomery can play WR and RB. Hill plays QB, RB including FB, TE, and special teams. And he has played well in those roles, not below average.

It's a bit like comparing Deion Sanders and Bo Jackson to anyone else. What other modern era athletes excelled in two professional sports? Michael Jordan tried and failed. Michael Jordan!

Going back a few decades, Chuck Bednarik started at Center and Middle Linebacker.. Lou Groza played OL and placekicker. Some athletes just have unique skillsets. Taysom Hill is one of them.
Don't forget the Westbank's own Slash.
 
If you ignore his joker role then you can't really have a valid opinion of his worth. Unless something goes wrong with JW that IS his role and his value. Add the fact that he's also the #2 QB the 5-7 mil he's likely to make it really isn't a terrible deal.

I'm ignoring the Joker role for sake of argument. I mean, I'm not sure how you value a solid special teamer/solid pass catching FB, solid pass catching TE. He's not great at any of those positions, but he does contribute with some production and because teams don't know where he will line up, he can create mismatches. I think at those positions, he's more or less a vet minimum or just above that player. So, I don't know that you really factor that into his overall value because he's not really a big playmaker at those positions and his value in those positions is more or less included what you pay him to be the backup QB and Wildcat/Read Option QB. I mean, if you want to add the vet minimum in the analysis of worth, I won't argue with you, but I don't think it makes much difference in his overall value. His real value is as a playmaking QB and backup QB.

I also don't think it's fair to base his value as multiple players because he saves roster spots since he doesn't really save roster spots. We keep 3 QBs because his role at other positions means you don't have a safe #2 backup unless you keep at third QB and he can't practice at QB all week because he is doing other things. He doesn't save you a roster spot at TE or FB because he doesn't play those full time, we still have a FB and 3 TEs on the roster. And you can't have him play special teams anymore because he is too important/too busy doing other things to risk injury and/or spend time learning assignments on special teams.

I mean, pure backup QBs make between $770K and maybe $11 million. But the $11 million is Bridgewater who was brought in to start. The highest actual backup is Nick Floes at $8 million, but he won a Super Bowl not long ago and did start some games for the Bears. Next is Keenum at $6 million. Anyway, most make in the $ 1 million to $2 million range. So, I think this year, with all the starts he made, Hill is probably paid about right, but is he doesn't start several games, it's a bit high since he's not yet in the range of Bridgwater, Keenum, and Foles as a starting QB yet. I think as a backup QB, he is probably at best in the $4 million range, maybe $2 million.

And, my reading of his new contract is that he will make $10 million per year as the backup QB, not $5 to $7 million. But, I could be wrong. If it is $5 to $7 million, it's a lot more reasonable.

Basically, as AARP said, he's a unique player and it's really hard to determine his value. I could honestly argue that he is over paid or paid about right depending on the day of the week. But, right now, I think based on him as a backup QB and playmaking occasional QB, he is a bit overpaid. But, I'm not worried about it because I don't think it will stop the team from doing the things they need/want to do.
 
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He scores a lot of TDs. But yeah I can see your argument. I guess I just think he contributes more to the offense than you do. I'm just scared that he might not be the same player after all these foot issues.
 
He scores a lot of TDs. But yeah I can see your argument. I guess I just think he contributes more to the offense than you do. I'm just scared that he might not be the same player after all these foot issues.

That's the concern. I really like the things he does for this team, especially the Wildcat/Read Option QB stuff. And, he was starting to "get it" as a pure QB. It blows that he will lose most, if not all, of the offseason when he could have developed more.

And, I'm concerned that this injury will make him less effective as the great power runner that he is. I mean, you can probably find a kid later in the draft to use as a Read Option QB, but there aren't many guys that combine Hill's power and speed as a Read Option QB. The last one close was Tebow and Hill is more of a threat as a passer and I think a good bit faster. But, my hope is that Hill's straight ahead running style won't be too affected by the injury. It's probably more of a worry for a guy that cuts and avoids contact a lot. Hill has never seen contact that he didn't like. But, I do think the injury could make him lose a step or two in terms of speed.
 

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