Teacher Beheaded in France for Showing Class Picture of Muhammad (2 Viewers)

Ever heard of Pope Gregory IX?
Ever read passages like Ephesians 6:11-16?
Ever heard of the Malleus Maleficarum?

There. Go read.
Some theologians will tell you that if St. Paul knew how some of his writings and epistles would've been later used, distorted and justified as official papal or church doctrines towards persecutions of Jews, non-Christian Germanic pagans, Old Norse Scandinavian communities who resisted and actively fought against Christian proselytization for centuries until early-mid 11th century, he might have been a bit more cautious before writing it.

Because many of Paul's epistles or commentaries in New Testament, in their original context, met something very different to him and early Christian churches who felt persecuted, ostracized and in constant danger from Roman authorities who viewed them with suspicion. His or those words meant something very different from how later Christian leaders would interpret it and manipulate it for their own ends.

The Malleus Malefaricarum is a product of two German "witch-hunters" as an quack book that supposedly serves as an official how-to guide on discovering, outing, and different forms of executions for witches. You have to keep in mind before the Black Death bubonic plague nearly wiped 1/4th of European populations, global temperatures aligned with "Little Ice Age" or Medieval Cooling Period, from late 13th century to late 19th century, that devastated cities, farms, harvests, commoners beliefs in God's saving grace or the power and integrity of Church to save them or help in any significant way. This period of European history, System, has been called the Crisis of the Late Middle Ages. Earlier on centuries before in 10-13th centuries, Church's policies towards witches or witchcraft, while hostile and nasty, didn't mostly call for inquisitions, burning at the stakes, or mass drownings, most priests found witches to be nuisances and argued they were mostly harmless and had no power to do really anything.

Centuries of declining, detoriating social, economic, and political tensions and radical changes in European domestic power politics saw a fertile environment for drastic extremes that created books like the Malleus Maleficarum. Even during Salem Witch trials, if a man or woman admitted to being a witch, as unjust as it really was and seems to us, they'd be sent away to live in exile far away from any Puritan villages, towns, or cities.
 
Respect your extensive knowledge, 2884...but you really need to add a “TL/DR” summary at the end.
Yeah, I hear you, Kiwi. Some of my comments or replies to these complicated, multi-faceted issues do tend to be way overly long and so detailed, it's easy to see how some posters might be concerned their eyes will bleed by the time their done reading. You try to be as informative as possible about certain topics in replies and explaining them can get lengthy at times plus how its worded or comes across can be a burden for some posters to read. I would also like to think I'm getting somewhat better than how I was 3-4 years ago. One lives and learns and improves.

I'd like to think me and you are pretty tight and have gotten very well over the years. God only knows, I remember several years ago IIRC you were living in Moscow or St. Petersburg, Russia, or at least I think it was you. I'd love to visit Middle Earth (New Zealand) one day because they have beautiful, vast, diverse terrain and topography and a determined population that doesn't let tsunamis, devastating earthquakes or mass shootings stop them from moving on with their individual lives and trying to make this world a nicer place.

Good night and good luck in Christchurch, NZ.
 
Didn't say I didn't want to talk about it. I said the discussion was getting away from the topic of the thread. Anyway, let's move on.

But that Pope from the 12th century tho
 
Kind of like how centuries of destabilization of Africa and a century of it in the Middle East by Europe and America in the name of ruthless exploitation of their resources has created all of those strict, puritanical Islamist regimes, we even propped up and continue to prop up some of those strict, puritanical Islamist regimes.

So yeah, every religion and culture has a lot of blood on their hands. It's absurd for any religion or culture to think they can sit in a morally superior position to any other religion or culture. What's worse than it being absurd is that it's that very same sense of moral superiority to others that fuels all of the violence from all of the different religions and cultures.

Pretty much how politics in this country has become religion with violence and intolerance being attached
 
In reference to a couple of deleted posts. Let's stay away from personal insults and calling people names. No need for that. Thanks.
 
You're suggesting it has physical militant implications when it is simply an allegory to internal spiritual struggle.

That's how 21st century Tenordas interprets that passage.
How would 13th century Tenordas interpret that passage?
How would a 13th century Pope with his own private army interpret that passage?
 
That's how 21st century Tenordas interprets that passage.
How would 13th century Tenordas interpret that passage?
How would a 13th century Pope with his own private army interpret that passage?

That's all irrelevant. What's relevant is the writer's intended meaning. We can glean a bit of that from the context and the intended audience. To ascribe meaning to the writer's intended meaning is to take the quote out of context and use it in a way the author never intended.
 
That's all irrelevant. What's relevant is the writer's intended meaning. We can glean a bit of that from the context and the intended audience. To ascribe meaning to the writer's intended meaning is to take the quote out of context and use it in a way the author never intended.

I thought you were done. Why do you continue to reply to me on this subject?

And it is relevant. These are the type of "textuals" who are conveniently interpreted to fit whatever agenda church leaders have at the time, like a 13th century Pope with a private army. We are talking about people who thought burning someone alive would purify their souls.

And no, you have no idea what the writer's intended meaning was. You don't even know who the actual writer was.
 
I thought you were done. Why do you continue to reply to me on this subject?

And it is relevant. These are the type of "textuals" who are conveniently interpreted to fit whatever agenda church leaders have at the time, like a 13th century Pope with a private army. We are talking about people who thought burning someone alive would purify their souls.

And no, you have no idea what the writer's intended meaning was. You don't even know who the actual writer was.

And I completely disagree. To each his own then.
 
I thought you were done. Why do you continue to reply to me on this subject?

And it is relevant. These are the type of "textuals" who are conveniently interpreted to fit whatever agenda church leaders have at the time, like a 13th century Pope with a private army. We are talking about people who thought burning someone alive would purify their souls.

And no, you have no idea what the writer's intended meaning was. You don't even know who the actual writer was.
and granted this is a semantic and subjective distinction, but i would say if you are abstracting the text to achieve a goal against another peoples, then it's political
if you are applying the text to facilitate an individual or cultural spirituality, then it's religious

to whit - marshaling against abortion or homosexuality or other issues the gospels did not address even remotely is political
- if people are organizing to feed the poor or heal the sick - stuff jesus went on and on and on and on and on about - that's religious
 
I thought you were done. Why do you continue to reply to me on this subject?

And it is relevant. These are the type of "textuals" who are conveniently interpreted to fit whatever agenda church leaders have at the time, like a 13th century Pope with a private army. We are talking about people who thought burning someone alive would purify their souls.

And no, you have no idea what the writer's intended meaning was. You don't even know who the actual writer was.

Your point about a Pope misusing a text for his own agenda definitely is valid, especially considering the priests would not allow common people to read the texts for themselves in those days. Certainly, many words were used out of context to mean something they do not (not to mention words being made up completely).
However, you are incorrect in saying we don't know the writer's intention. All one has to do is read the entire chapter to understand his intention (better to read the entire letter, of course, which makes it even more obvious).
You also are incorrect entirely in saying we do not know who wrote the letter. Even antagonistic scholars agree that Ephesians was written by Paul (around AD 62). You have a better argument about the Gospels because there is barely any historical evidence to directly tie the traditional authors to those texts, but you have no defensible argument about Paul's letter because historian scholarship going all the way back to the late first century AD (and some of those documents were written by men who knew Paul personally) says he is the author.
 
and granted this is a semantic and subjective distinction, but i would say if you are abstracting the text to achieve a goal against another peoples, then it's political
if you are applying the text to facilitate an individual or cultural spirituality, then it's religious
There is no distinction. Your individual or cultural spirituality could very well be achieving something against other people. See crusades. Even today Jerusalem is considered a holy land, and people see it a righteous enterprise to take it over, give it to the Jews, and defend it from the Muslims, because prophesy.

to whit - marshaling against abortion or homosexuality or other issues the gospels did not address even remotely is political
The Bible clearly states homosexuality is an abomination and people who practice homosexuality shall be put to death.
 
Your point about a Pope misusing a text for his own agenda definitely is valid, especially considering the priests would not allow common people to read the texts for themselves in those days. Certainly, many words were used out of context to mean something they do not (not to mention words being made up completely).
However, you are incorrect in saying we don't know the writer's intention. All one has to do is read the entire chapter to understand his intention (better to read the entire letter, of course, which makes it even more obvious).
You also are incorrect entirely in saying we do not know who wrote the letter. Even antagonistic scholars agree that Ephesians was written by Paul (around AD 62). You have a better argument about the Gospels because there is barely any historical evidence to directly tie the traditional authors to those texts, but you have no defensible argument about Paul's letter because historian scholarship going all the way back to the late first century AD (and some of those documents were written by men who knew Paul personally) says he is the author.

You may want to look into that agreement even among agnostic scholars as to who wrote it. So, no, you don't know who the writer was, and after the many translations and interpretations, considering how long ago it was allegedly written, I can say that you don't know what the writer's intentions were.

As for a Pope misusing the text, can you say for certain he misused the texts, or that he believed them as he read them and understood them? We have gone from believing the Bible a literal, 100% factual text, to a number of interpretations depending on scientific advances and cultural evolution. There is a reason why there are so many denominations out there.
 

Create an account or login to comment

You must be a member in order to leave a comment

Create account

Create an account on our community. It's easy!

Log in

Already have an account? Log in here.

Users who are viewing this thread

    Back
    Top Bottom