Terence Crutcher, unarmed man, shot by a Tulsa police officer (update: Officer Betty Shelby charged with manslaughter) (1 Viewer)

[CountWhoDat]

I am not sure how this statute fits the crime either. My choice would be negligent homicide, but that also depends on the language of the statute. For me I don't see where she has criminal intent, that is, I don't think she intended to commit a crime. But someone can be so negligent to the point they are criminally negligent, which is negligent homicide when it results in death.

As a prosecutor, that's the offense I think I could best sell to the jury in this case. Even if she believed he was going for a gun, I would argue that belief was not a reasonable belief under the circumstances. I tend to believe she did think she was in danger, but that her use of deadly force was excessive if the facts are as they appear on the video.

Yeah I think you're on point with that. Oddly, I don't think Oklahoma has a negligent homicide statute, or at least not a separate one. It looks like any homicide without general intent falls under their second degree manslaughter statute, which looks like this:

Every killing of one human being by the act, procurement or culpable negligence of another, which, under the provisions of this chapter, is not murder, nor manslaughter in the first degree, nor excusable nor justifiable homicide, is manslaughter in the second degree.

OSCN Found Document:Second Degree Manslaughter

So, it seems this essentially this functions as their negligent homicide statute, among other things. What's odd is it seems this is the perfect fit for the officer's actions that night. I do wonder whether or not they overcharged her hoping for the lesser included offense or perhaps the sound of "second degree manslaughter" to the non-legal ear sounded questionable or not serious enough. I'm honestly not sure.

There's also a justified deadly force statute specifically for officers, but I don't want to wade into the weeds on that tonight.

 

[FullMonte]

If I walk up to a UFC fighter and tell him I'm going to kick his *** he'll probably laugh. The trained shouldn't be fearful of the untrained. This who fear for life defense at every turn is a cop out..no pun intended it just is.

Without defending anyone involved in this situation....your analogy isn't even close...

If you walk up to a UFC Fighter and tell him you're going to kick his ***, he might laugh...because he can look at you and judge whether or not you are able to accomplish that.

If you tell a police officer you are going to shoot them, and you reach into your car for something....regardless of how trained the officer is, he can not look at you and judge whether or not you are able to accomplish that.

 

[SystemShock]

Great posts.

I don't know if everyone has been held at gunpoint before, held at gunpoint by a LEO or held at gunpoint by multiple LEOs. I have and it is very disconcerting. The anxiousness, nervousness and rush of adrenaline you feel is hard to describe. Knowing a split second decision, wrong move or mistake can be deadly is very...I don't wish if for anyone.

.

My younger son has Tourette's Syndrome. As he gets older, his tics are less pronounced, but when he gets nervous, his tics tend to flare up. It could be clapping his hands a couple of times, jumping, etc. The thought that he could be in an encounter with police, even for something as minor as it was your case, frankly terrifies me. And he's white.

 

[SystemShock]

Without defending anyone involved in this situation....your analogy isn't even close...

If you walk up to a UFC Fighter and tell him you're going to kick his ***, he might laugh...because he can look at you and judge whether or not you are able to accomplish that.

If you tell a police officer you are going to shoot them, and you reach into your car for something....regardless of how trained the officer is, he can not look at you and judge whether or not you are able to accomplish that.

See gun, shoot. No see gun, no shoot.

And again:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-with-an-unloaded-gun/?utm_term=.d280e8e884f1

 

[livefromDC]

Let me think about how many times I can remember being pulled over.

Twice in my home down by the chief of police, of all people - 0 tickets (helps that I knew him). Both were minor things anyway. so, 0-2.

At least twice on my way up to college over the years. Got at least one ticket for speeding, and once I was allowed to go (some one else drove by weird and he decided they were a bigger deal to he chased after them and yelled that I could go). So, 1-4 now.

Pulled over at least twice in southern Michigan, once as a resident, once as a resident of another stated.. got ticketed for speeding both times.. So, 3-6 now.

I was pulled over twice in Louisiana. Once for speeding when I first moved down (had no idea it dropped down, it was late), got a seat belt ticket instead of speeding.. so I'll count that as 0. The other was for a left turn on red.. I was caught in the intersection due to traffic backing up.. decided to go left so I wasn't blocking.. I guess he didn't care for that. So, now 4-8.

Pretty sure I've only been pulled over once in Florida. Bike cop. Got a ticket. Actually first time they didn't cut me a small break and I had to use a traffic lawyer. So, 5-9.

This is so weird. This wasn't your point, but I noticed a staunch difference between your experience and mine. First off, my ticket rate is lower than your rate...a lot lower...incredibly lower.

I can't count the amount of times I've been pulled over. I literally can't count them. I can recall some specific moments though.

I've been stopped while walking at least 4 times. The first time I was 15 and I was walking with 2 other friends. 2 vans pulled up and 7 officers jumped out and instructed us to lie on the grown. I believe only 3 guns were drawn, I only really remember the one pointed at me. They picked us up and asked our names, where we were coming from and where we were going. They let us go and drove off like nothing happened. The second time was the most scariest. I don't care to recount it right now, but again it was an unmarked car. Unfortunately, I was alone. No tickets. The other 2 times resulted in no tickets.

Driving, I've been stopped for any and every reason, but I've only gotten a ticket twice. I've been stopped for taking too long to park. I've been stopped because my "window tint" looked illegal. I've been stopped for being in a neighborhood...(why are you in this neighborhood?) I've been stopped after pulling into the gas station. I've been stopped pulling out of the gas station. That time, a friend and I were handcuffed and sat on the curb for 40 minutes while they searched the car (which we didn't give permission to do) and did God knows what else. They returned our IDs and we were told we were free to go. This happened at the Exxon on Carrolton and Washington. We had just left a study group. No explanation. No tickets. Just told to move on. I've been screamed at, I've been asked to exit the car, I've been addressed at gunpoint. I've been searched, I've declined searched. I've declined car searches. I've been lied to. I've been apologized to (sorry man, thought you were someone else.) The overwhelming majority of the times I've been stopped the officer has been cordial, business like. Sometimes, they are really nice. Only rarely, have they been complete *******s.

The only 2 times that I've gotten a ticket in my life were making an illegal left turn from Veterans to Causeway right under the Causeway overpass. Like you, I got stuck in an intersection. The 2nd time was a speeding ticket on General DeGaulle which was thrown out on my court date.

I'm not a choirboy, but I have to admit I'm pretty close to it. Heck, I didn't really start drinking until I fell into the hands of the other dad's club at my daughter's elementary school. Even now, I only drink rarely. My point is this. The differences between our interaction with LEOs is crazy.

 

[Saint_Ward]

Update. He had PCP in his system, which explains why he wasn't cooperative, but the officer suspected this.

Seems like there is stronger evidence that the window was up vs down (listen to the first video). Doesn't seem like a reason to shoot. The only potential argument, maybe, is that from her view, she couldn't tell the window was up. I dunno. I think manslaughter sticks.

Tulsa police shooting: Victim had PCP in his system - CNN.com

 

[Saint_Ward]

This is so weird. This wasn't your point, but I noticed a staunch difference between your experience and mine. First off, my ticket rate is lower than your rate...a lot lower...incredibly lower.

I can't count the amount of times I've been pulled over. I literally can't count them. I can recall some specific moments though.

I've been stopped while walking at least 4 times. The first time I was 15 and I was walking with 2 other friends. 2 vans pulled up and 7 officers jumped out and instructed us to lie on the grown. I believe only 3 guns were drawn, I only really remember the one pointed at me. They picked us up and asked our names, where we were coming from and where we were going. They let us go and drove off like nothing happened. The second time was the most scariest. I don't care to recount it right now, but again it was an unmarked car. Unfortunately, I was alone. No tickets. The other 2 times resulted in no tickets.

Driving, I've been stopped for any and every reason, but I've only gotten a ticket twice. I've been stopped for taking too long to park. I've been stopped because my "window tint" looked illegal. I've been stopped for being in a neighborhood...(why are you in this neighborhood?) I've been stopped after pulling into the gas station. I've been stopped pulling out of the gas station. That time, a friend and I were handcuffed and sat on the curb for 40 minutes while they searched the car (which we didn't give permission to do) and did God knows what else. They returned our IDs and we were told we were free to go. This happened at the Exxon on Carrolton and Washington. We had just left a study group. No explanation. No tickets. Just told to move on. I've been screamed at, I've been asked to exit the car, I've been addressed at gunpoint. I've been searched, I've declined searched. I've declined car searches. I've been lied to. I've been apologized to (sorry man, thought you were someone else.) The overwhelming majority of the times I've been stopped the officer has been cordial, business like. Sometimes, they are really nice. Only rarely, have they been complete *******s.

The only 2 times that I've gotten a ticket in my life were making an illegal left turn from Veterans to Causeway right under the Causeway overpass. Like you, I got stuck in an intersection. The 2nd time was a speeding ticket on General DeGaulle which was thrown out on my court date.

I'm not a choirboy, but I have to admit I'm pretty close to it. Heck, I didn't really start drinking until I fell into the hands of the other dad's club at my daughter's elementary school. Even now, I only drink rarely. My point is this. The differences between our interaction with LEOs is crazy.

Sorry I missed all this. Well, I'd say based on what you're saying is that you were mostly pulled over for no real reason, maybe suspicion, and they found nothing. Often over reacting.

In my cases, I was pulled over mostly for cause, and ticketed like I should be, and perhaps they also just figured I could afford it?

 

[Galbreath34]

Definitely changes my opinion of the guy and what may have been the overall situation, but from the video and the way the other officers held fire, can't see anything that was menacing enough at that moment for more than a taser, if that.

If the DA continues through trial, will be interesting to see if more audio and video comes out and/or testimony from other officers on the scene.

 

[bclemms]

This is so weird. This wasn't your point, but I noticed a staunch difference between your experience and mine. First off, my ticket rate is lower than your rate...a lot lower...incredibly lower.

I can't count the amount of times I've been pulled over. I literally can't count them. I can recall some specific moments though.

I've been stopped while walking at least 4 times. The first time I was 15 and I was walking with 2 other friends. 2 vans pulled up and 7 officers jumped out and instructed us to lie on the grown. I believe only 3 guns were drawn, I only really remember the one pointed at me. They picked us up and asked our names, where we were coming from and where we were going. They let us go and drove off like nothing happened. The second time was the most scariest. I don't care to recount it right now, but again it was an unmarked car. Unfortunately, I was alone. No tickets. The other 2 times resulted in no tickets.

Driving, I've been stopped for any and every reason, but I've only gotten a ticket twice. I've been stopped for taking too long to park. I've been stopped because my "window tint" looked illegal. I've been stopped for being in a neighborhood...(why are you in this neighborhood?) I've been stopped after pulling into the gas station. I've been stopped pulling out of the gas station. That time, a friend and I were handcuffed and sat on the curb for 40 minutes while they searched the car (which we didn't give permission to do) and did God knows what else. They returned our IDs and we were told we were free to go. This happened at the Exxon on Carrolton and Washington. We had just left a study group. No explanation. No tickets. Just told to move on. I've been screamed at, I've been asked to exit the car, I've been addressed at gunpoint. I've been searched, I've declined searched. I've declined car searches. I've been lied to. I've been apologized to (sorry man, thought you were someone else.) The overwhelming majority of the times I've been stopped the officer has been cordial, business like. Sometimes, they are really nice. Only rarely, have they been complete *******s.

The only 2 times that I've gotten a ticket in my life were making an illegal left turn from Veterans to Causeway right under the Causeway overpass. Like you, I got stuck in an intersection. The 2nd time was a speeding ticket on General DeGaulle which was thrown out on my court date.

I'm not a choirboy, but I have to admit I'm pretty close to it. Heck, I didn't really start drinking until I fell into the hands of the other dad's club at my daughter's elementary school. Even now, I only drink rarely. My point is this. The differences between our interaction with LEOs is crazy.

Your experiences are much more in line with mine. I will get into more detail later but just for a quick run down. I havent been pulled over since Saturday. I havent had a gun pulled on me since April. I have been arrested for having eggs and toilet paper. I've been illegally stopped for being in the wrong area. I've had my car illegally searched numerous times when officers smelled marijuana that didnt exist. Had officers claim my car door was open when I broke down on the side of the road and walked 3 miles home. They claimed the door was open so they could search it but managed to damage the window dam. When I get home my apartment was overrun by cops who claimed my frint door was wide open and they searched my apartment from top to bottom. Had cash and some collectibles disappear in the process. Ive been on my stomach with an officers knee in my back for "trying to outrun" a cop going 45/55 with my blinker on trying to find a safe place to pull off.

I will add that I'm polite and obey instructions.

I will also add, as I have gotten older I'm treated completely different.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

Your experiences are much more in line with mine. I will get into more detail later but just for a quick run down. I havent been pulled over since Saturday. I havent had a gun pulled on me since April. I have been arrested for having eggs and toilet paper. I've been illegally stopped for being in the wrong area. I've had my car illegally searched numerous times when officers smelled marijuana that didnt exist. Had officers claim my car door was open when I broke down on the side of the road and walked 3 miles home. They claimed the door was open so they could search it but managed to damage the window dam. When I get home my apartment was overrun by cops who claimed my frint door was wide open and they searched my apartment from top to bottom. Had cash and some collectibles disappear in the process. Ive been on my stomach with an officers knee in my back for "trying to outrun" a cop going 45/55 with my blinker on trying to find a safe place to pull off.

I will add that I'm polite and obey instructions.

I will also add, as I have gotten older I'm treated completely different.

Wth?

 

[rajncajn]

Sorry I missed all this. Well, I'd say based on what you're saying is that you were mostly pulled over for no real reason, maybe suspicion, and they found nothing. Often over reacting.

In my cases, I was pulled over mostly for cause, and ticketed like I should be, and perhaps they also just figured I could afford it?

I've been pulled over for some pretty trivial stuff: tag light was out, no blinker, changing lanes through an intersection. The worst one I ever had was when an unmarked car started tailgating me in the right lane for no reason at all. I switched lanes twice and both times he got right behind me. I even slowed way down to try to get him to pass me. Finally I got fed up with it and sped up. That is when the lights came on. He pulled me over and wrote me a ticket for speeding. I tried to explain what he was doing was making me nervous. I just thought it was somebody harassing me. He told me it was no excuse. I also had a cop show up at my office one day because his buddy had cut in too close behind me and he spilled his coffee on himself when I had to brake for my turn. He threatened to arrest me for reckless driving. I threatened to sure him for harassment. Told him I had witnesses and video of him coming into the office.

 

[El Caliente]

I just hope that when the officer does go to prison she doesn't get involved in some wild underground prison fighting system, and then she gets beat up and is sent to the doctor, and he/she gives the officer some wild drug that makes her powerful, and no gun, knife, truck, or bazooka can hurt her.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

I just hope that when the officer does go to prison she doesn't get involved in some wild underground prison fighting system, and then she gets beat up and is sent to the doctor, and he/she gives the officer some wild drug that makes her powerful, and no gun, knife, truck, or bazooka can hurt her.

Maybe quit making with the funny and finish the dang series

 

[El Caliente]

Maybe quit making with the funny and finish the dang series

I'm on it!

 

[bclemms]

Wth?

Saturday my support truck and myself were pulled over for driving late at night in South Carolina by the very same police that wouldn't go help people on the interstate injured in traffic accidents because it was "too dangerous" for them to be out. There was no curfew in the area we were pulled over and we were "suspicious vehicles". Once he saw my press pass and camera rolling it was, "You guys be careful and have a good night".

April, I was in West Memphis Arkansas coming home from the plains around 3:30am. They had construction on the interstate and two exits were closed and I got off another exit to get gas. When I went to get back on the ramp to the interstate it was closed due to an accident. So I drove around West Memphis trying to find a way back on the interstate and couldn't even using Google and Waze. West Memphis is one of the most dangerous places in the country. So finally I get back to the interstate ramp from the service road and drove very slowly around two cones in my Prius with the lights on inside my car to ask the cops blocking the ramp how to get to the interstate. One runs up to my window with his gun in my face and the other is in front of my car gun drawn screaming stop and "WTF am I doing driving around cones" and all kinds of other stuff when the cop at my window sees his partner on my computer being recorded. It wasn't until then everything changed. This all happened on live stream.

So then they were trying to justify their actions in a calm situation by asking why would I ever drive around cones. I told them there was nowhere to park, I couldn't just stop on the service road and I needed directions to get back on the interstate. They were forcing cars off the interstate with most other ramps shut down to get back on with no direction. I literally drove between the cones at less than idle speed. I reported them to the West Memphis police chief but he simply defended them. I should post that video on facebook but it wouldn't sit well with some of the people that write me checks.



The night my car broke down I was in Clinton, Ms. My alternator went out around 2am. I pulled the car off the side of the road, made damn sure it was locked and just started walking home. When I arrived at my apartment it was wide open with at least a half dozen cops inside searching everything. I asked why they were there and was told that they found an unoccupied vehicle with the door open standing wide open. In my concern they searched the vehicle and found a joint (showed me plastic bag with joint in it). I can promise you it wasn't mind because that would have made that walk home a lot better. Then they said when they ran the plates on the car it came back to my name at the apartment address (Car was registered to parents home in another city) and they came by to do a welfare check and the front door was standing wide open. Out of concern for me they called in backup and went inside to check the home for intruders. Of course, they didn't need a warrant because the "door was open". I never left me door unlocked, let alone open. My neighbor said they climbed over the balcony (bottom floor) and lifted the sliding glass door over the lock and opened it that way. Filed complaints against the officers but that simply led to harassment. I got pulled over at least once a week after that and searched with no warrant despite me saying no because they "smelled marijuana" and had probable cause. It was so bad I ended up moving out of the city.

When living in Mandeville I routinely got pulled over by police for the most insane reasons. One night I pulled in to a parking lot to go to a drugstore. They were closed so I turned around and got back on the highway. Got pulled over for illegally turning around in a parking lot and being a suspicious vehicle. They asked to search my car and I refused. They then claimed that they smelled marijuana and since I was a minor had no right to refuse a search. I knew this was bull and told them as much. I ended up handcuffed face down on the concrete while they searched and found nothing. Luckily I knew the sheriff in St. Tammany and when I contacted him with the incident he gave them paid leave for a week. So because I had a contact they got a week of paid vacation.

One night in Kenner I got pulled over for speeding. He asked if I had been drinking, told him no. Asked if there were any narcotics or firearms in the vehicle I told him no. He asked to search the vehicle and I told him no. He told me he could make a phone call and get a warrant I asked if he wanted to use my phone to call a judge at 3am to get a search warrant on a car for speeding. He went back to the car, came back up to mine and gave me a ticket when suddenly he smelled weed. Asked me to step out the car, I did. Asked me to turn around and started to cuff me at which point I pulled one hand down and questioned what he was doing. Next thing I know I was on my stomach with his knee in my back while he was grinding it in. His partner was now standing next to me with his gun on me. I was on my stomach the next 20 minutes while they searched my car up and down. I again filed a complaint with the KPD, they told me they would look into it but pretty much said that I was lucky they didn't drag me in to jail for resisting arrest.

During homecoming week in High School we bought one of those giant packs of toilet paper from the grocery store. Cop saw us putting it in my truck in the parking lot and pulls us over the second we turned on the highway. Searched our vehicle even after I said no but claimed he had the right because he saw us putting stuff in the vehicle. The stuff being toilet paper and eggs. Cuffed us, took us all in to jail and filed criminal mischief charges against us. Said we were going to use the toilet paper and eggs to roll houses. We were but that was besides the point. I still think I'm the only person on the planet to get arrested for possession of eggs. The police chief then calls our parents and makes them come and get us.

In Pensacola Florida I had met some girls during spring break and came back to see them. We took them to the county fair. I was 15 at the time and had my drivers license. Well when leaving the fair I got pulled over by a cop on a golf cart. We were all laughing about being pulled over by a golf cart when he comes up to the window all ****** off asking if I know how fast I was going. I told him no sir, my speedometer doesn't register under 10mph. He told me that I was flying through the parking lot. I responded that I couldn't have been going too fast since he caught me on a golf cart. Well, all of us were dragged out the truck and lined up as some more cops showed up. He then places me under arrest for driving with an invalid license claiming that I had to be 16 to drive a vehicle in the state of Florida. I tried to explain to him that you only had to be 15 to get a drivers license in Louisiana and he finally understood that. He didn't understand that just because I was in Florida that it didn't mean I had to be 16. Tried to explain the Full Faith and Credit clause which forces states to recognize other states official documents and stuff such as a drivers license. He wrote me several tickets, had my truck towed and called the girls parents and made them come pick us up. Luckily they realized the ignorance and level of stupid the officers were operating under. Still a massive pain in the ***.

In Kansas chasing a tornado a couple years ago I had a cop write me a ticket for blocking traffic. Claimed I was parked on a highway when I was pulled over so far that I wasn't even on the shoulder. It ended up being a big deal in the chaser community, had several articles written about it and the tickets were dismissed after I showed video of the entire incident from 4 different camera angles.

In NJ about a month ago was shooting video of an ice cream truck that had caught on fire in the middle of the street. I was standing next to a police car shooting video. The police officer asked me to move and I started to ask if I could shoot video and went to show him my press credentials and he shoves me across the street and started yelling. I wanted to drop his *** but thought better of it and just started shooting the truck on fire.

Almost all of the really bad dealing I've had with police happened when I was 15-24 years old. I wasn't completely innocent in those years but it doesn't even come close to justify the police actions.

In the last 10 years when I get pulled over it's mostly because of speeding and they usually let me off and end up asking me about the gear in my car. Other times I get pulled over it's for being out after curfew in disaster areas but since I have press credentials I'm allowed to be. Most of my interactions with police are very good now. I feel comfortable around them and they feel comfortable around me. I actually see them as an asset and we exchange information in disaster areas.

From experience I can tell you this though. The difference between the day shifts and the night shifts are well, night and day. The attitudes and policing tactics are completely different.


I often wonder what I've done to get so much attention from police. Really though, I guess it's just a mileage average. When you drive 80-100k miles a year you just are much more likely to have police interactions. Then when so many of those miles are done in disaster areas and I'm sure my actions appear odd since I'm out shooting video and driving slow and stuff.