Terrance Copper?...is it the fumble why yall hate him so much? (1 Viewer)

I don't believe anyone has mentioned this yet so let me be the first... Henderson plays "X" receiver (backing up Colston) while Copper plays "Z" receiver (backing up Horn) in Payton's offense. These positions are quite different, in terms of both pass routes and run block assignments, kind of like split end vs. flanker. So, all this wondering and questioning why Copper is the #2 WR ahead of Henderson is misguided, I think. The real question should be why doesn't Colston move to the "Z" spot while Horn is out, thereby allowing Henderson (or Copper) to play the "X". Although, I'm sure Henderson's shoulder injury had something to do with it, not to mention the fact that Colston is a rookie afterall and why mess with karma?

When Copper first joined the team, if you recall, Payton said that he wanted him to start out as "X" and was basically 3rd on the depth chart at that spot (BTW, Jones and Moore backed up Horn at "Z" when the season started). Obviously, with Moore being "demoted" to PS (due to Beerman's return), and with Jones' lack of production, Copper was asked to learn the "Z" as well, and has done a decent job filling in for Horn. However, once Horn comes back, Copper will be back on the bench and assume his #4 WR role. That's because when the Saints go 3-receiver set, Henderson enters as the #3 WR (split end on the line) and Colston, usually, moves to the slot (off the line).

Next year? look for Colston to take over Horn's "Z" spot and Henderson, Copper, etc. to fight it out for "X". Of course, I'd like to see that happen now, with Joe moving to the slot as the #3 WR. If Copper can play the "Z" then surely Colston can too, this year, right? And I would think that Colston-Henderson tandem would be every bit as effective as Horn-Stallworth ever was... imho :)

Just Testing

Exactly- I'd like to add some more to this:
A players rank on the depth chart has little to do with the starting lineup. Of course the lineup is full of your top players. That said, the lineup and depth chart don't account for "X" and "Z" reciever positions. Payton swaps Marques and Devery out depending on coverage, and has actually "started" Devery over Marques because of this (week 3 vs. Atlanta). It's simply putting the right people in position to make plays.

Devery also has minor issues coming off the line, and it's preferable to put him off the line in the slot, behind the split end, in motion, and so on. The ability to recover your route is crucial to the "Z" position, and there's generally less time to do so @ "Z". That's fine- use his advantages @ "X". The problem comes when trying to shift and keep a legal line- there have been several illegal formation penalties from this. They are getting more cohesive as time goes on, but it's easier to manage with Devery at "X" than "Z". Even easier against Tampa's cover two. Pittsburg, however, did an excellent job of putting a shadow on his routes, and are the primary reason he didn't get the ball. He sold every route he had though. :) That tells me he's starting to click and is being coached pretty good.
 
IT happens to the best of them. How can anyone be dissapointed at the effort the Saints exibited against the defending world champs. they were never out of that game!!! If they are going to loose, I sure would rather know they left it all out on the field. They'll be fine. I wouldn't want to be Cincy this week. : )
 
I agree with Meily. He had a good game just a costly fumble. Bush wasn't crucified when he fumbled last week, i guess because we won.
 
Copper is still a Saints WR so I support him 100%. I thought he made some plays, but also had some bad plays. This is the NFL. It is no walk in the park. He will be fine.

Henderson was in on at least 20 plays (according to HC Payton). He did not make an impact. That is because he is not an every down WR. More of a speedster for big plays.
 
He had some critical drops and a offsides penalty. Henderson would have given us a better chance to win.

He had 1 drop not multiple ones. The TD catch he made was amazing. Henderson would not of hauled it in.

So we can say all day "Henderson would of done this or that" but in the end I think Copper gave us about the best game we could of hoped for.

The truth is, if our D didn't suck so bad it never should of came down to that last drive.
 
I don't believe anyone has mentioned this yet so let me be the first... Henderson plays "X" receiver (backing up Colston) while Copper plays "Z" receiver (backing up Horn) in Payton's offense. These positions are quite different, in terms of both pass routes and run block assignments, kind of like split end vs. flanker. So, all this wondering and questioning why Copper is the #2 WR ahead of Henderson is misguided, I think. The real question should be why doesn't Colston move to the "Z" spot while Horn is out, thereby allowing Henderson (or Copper) to play the "X". Although, I'm sure Henderson's shoulder injury had something to do with it, not to mention the fact that Colston is a rookie afterall and why mess with karma?

When Copper first joined the team, if you recall, Payton said that he wanted him to start out as "X" and was basically 3rd on the depth chart at that spot (BTW, Jones and Moore backed up Horn at "Z" when the season started). Obviously, with Moore being "demoted" to PS (due to Beerman's return), and with Jones' lack of production, Copper was asked to learn the "Z" as well, and has done a decent job filling in for Horn. However, once Horn comes back, Copper will be back on the bench and assume his #4 WR role. That's because when the Saints go 3-receiver set, Henderson enters as the #3 WR (split end on the line) and Colston, usually, moves to the slot (off the line).

Next year? look for Colston to take over Horn's "Z" spot and Henderson, Copper, etc. to fight it out for "X". Of course, I'd like to see that happen now, with Joe moving to the slot as the #3 WR. If Copper can play the "Z" then surely Colston can too, this year, right? And I would think that Colston-Henderson tandem would be every bit as effective as Horn-Stallworth ever was... imho :)

Just Testing

WOW is this first time poster right out of the offensive cordinator's room
very enlightening
pretty much slpains what's goin on
 
Thank you for this thread!!! Nobody was calling for Copper's head when he recovered that fumbled punt against Philly. Or when he made those good catches against Tampa two games ago. Or when he made that great TD catch in the first quarter. He screwed up. It happens. I don't remember any calls for cutting Deuce when he fumbled this year. Or when Brees has been intercepted. Turnovers happen and they are maddening, but he will be coached up. BELIEVE, PEOPLE!
 
He had some critical drops and a offsides penalty. Henderson would have given us a better chance to win.

Payton said after the game "They had 20 Henderson was in on....he just wasnt open." Henderson is not the best of rout runners. Could be why Copper was starting at the 2.
 
Testing and Pain Link Fence thanks for dropping that football knowledge, I have learned so much since I discovered this site because of posters like yall. Keep it up!
 
Copper has made some great catches -- and I think has the ability to be a good receiver in this league --

But the fumble hurt real bad -- I was convinced we were going to tie the game and win in overtime
 
I have to agree with Yeti here. The fumble and drop were bad; but when he was smiling after the false start penalty, it just didnt sit rigth with me. It just gave off a vibe that he didnt care about what he did and that it was alright on his part.
 
The truth is, if our D didn't suck so bad it never should of came down to that last drive.

Good post. Love the way some people on this board want to pin this ENTIRE loss on Copper. :rolleyes: Really? They would have won if it wasn't for the fumble at the end? Giving up over 460 yards on offense, not to mention 2 70+ yard runs, and 38 points escape your attention?

This was a team loss, plain and simple.
 
I have to agree with Yeti here. The fumble and drop were bad; but when he was smiling after the false start penalty, it just didnt sit rigth with me. It just gave off a vibe that he didnt care about what he did and that it was alright on his part.

A reciever who doesn't care doesn't give his body up the way copper did that game. Not to mention putting the effort in to go low and snag two balls outa the dirt (1 for a TD).

Stuff like smiling is taken way to seriously. I laugh when i'm angry all the time. Its a natural thing to laugh sarcastically when your mad in an "man thats unbelievable" sorta way.
 
Copper has been a good WR for us. Yes, he had a bad game but, overall he's been a pleasant surprise. Everybody has bad games. If you were to cut every player that fumbles the ball at the wrong time,(when is it ever the right time) or commits a penalty, you'd have completely new teams every week.

Yeti, you said, "it was the fumble that cost us the game in the end." Well, what about the two long runs that gave the Steelers 14 pts? We weren't driving for the win, we were driving for the tie. Who knows what would have happened in OT. We had not been able to stop their offense all day. Why would we have started in OT?

SaintsFan83, you said, "Henderson would have given us a better chance to win." How? This is a receiver who has done very little since being drafted by the Saints. He was in jeopardy of being cut numerous times in Training Camp. He also has been up and down in his play. He had a big game a couple of weeks ago but, not much else. I think Payton & Co sees these players in practice and they know better than us. Evidentally they see something you don't.

It's easy for us all to jump on a guy when he's down. I've been as guilty of it as anyone. Still, I think Copper has done more good than bad up to this point. What about Reggie? I don't hear the calls for him to be benched, cut, or whatever else.
 

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