That's two years in a row we have a nfc south team in the superbowl (2 Viewers)

[StudioSaint]

...Still, history of this league shows that only a few coach reinvented themselves and won after each a long period of losing. Most coaches that have a 7-9, 7-9, 7-9 record are shown the door, not given an extension in the middle of that...

The argument is circular. How many coaches get a chance to reinvent themselves after a long period of losing if they get fired after losing? For every Fisher, there is a Bill Cowher.

Just for perspective, Belichick started out 6-10, 7-9, 7-9, 11-5, 5-11 and 5-11 and had 12 years of NFL coaching experience before his 1st head coaching gig and 22 years of experience before his first year as the Patriots head coach.

By comparison, Payton had 10 years NFL experience before his first head coaching gig and did much better in his first 5 seasons with the Saints than Belichick did with the Browns (that's the Ravens Browns not today's Browns) and Payton just finished his 20th year in the NFL.

I'm not saying Payton will have the same success as Belichick, just that it seems premature to write him off when you look at his career in comparative context.

 

[El Caliente]

I'm really proud to have another NFC South team in the Super Bowl because...wait, no I'm not. I don't care if another NFC South team makes a Super Bowl unless that team is the Saints.

 

[Gump]

I have a feeling New England is going to absolutely crush it.

 

[Saintshizzle]

The argument is circular. How many coaches get a chance to reinvent themselves after a long period of losing if they get fired after losing? For every Fisher, there is a Bill Cowher.

Just for perspective, Belichick started out 6-10, 7-9, 7-9, 11-5, 5-11 and 5-11 and had 12 years of NFL coaching experience before his 1st head coaching gig and 22 years of experience before his first year as the Patriots head coach.

By comparison, Payton had 10 years NFL experience before his first head coaching gig and did much better in his first 5 seasons with the Saints than Belichick did with the Browns (that's the Ravens Browns not today's Browns) and Payton just finished his 20th year in the NFL.

I'm not saying Payton will have the same success as Belichick, just that it seems premature to write him off when you look at his career in comparative context.

Actually, you make the point better than I did, if you reread your post. Reread it, with the understanding that:

1. There is not a Bill Cowher for every...._____________. Bill Cower was an anomaly, and he knew it. What he did surprised him just as much, to the point that he retired shortly after. Shanahan and John Elway went and went back to win later in their careers together, but mostly, coaches are shown the door and not given those opportunities, because, they mostly don't rebound. They are fired.

2. The firing is not really a bad thing. It offers the coach a chance to rethink, relook and retool their methods before re-engaging, and they go on and have success with another team, as you see with you Bellichick example.

Think about it, what do the last 3 Super Bowl winning coaches have in common (Make it 4, bc NE will win this year)? All of them were fired once or twice before by other teams. In a way, we are hurting Sean by not firing him if he puts up another losing season. Staying on, letting him continue, is a way of saying that you don't have to retool, relook and reengage, keep doing what you doing...and the wheels will keep turning.

Anyway, as you saw with Brees, performance is the only thing that will change my opinion here, and that would have to be consistent. SP Offensive attack is very valuable and can be deadly on an NFL Team, but it has to be part of the team and not THE team. If he was as good as he is on the other side of the ball, we would have 3-4 trophies by now. That's why Belichick is always there and why we know Pete Carroll will be back soon and so on. A good offense has to support a defensive team.

By the way, both teams that won Sunday held their opponents to 9 points or less most of the game. Take a look at the SB winners over last 5 years including this upcoming. 4/5 had a Defensive coach at the helm, and the one team that did not have a Defensive head coach, just happened to have the best Defensive Coordinator in the league who had autonomy on running that side of the ball, built a defense that we compared to the best ever (Denver, last season). Wade Phillips defense in Denver is legendary, and allowed the team to win with a horse at the QB position that needed to be turned into soap a year earlier. This is not a coincidence anymore, and Atlanta has caught on...and will leave us behind if we don't stop the madness.

 

[lforet2002]

Since the merger, only four championship games have featured the no. 1 scoring offense and the no. 1 scoring defense, the most recent example coming 23 years ago when the Giants played Jim Kelly’s Bills. Look at the numbers just a little deeper, and a clash at this level is even less likely. Football Outsiders’ DVOA statistic measuring team efficiency starts in 1989, and Sunday will be the first time the top offense and top defense have ever met in the Super Bowl.

A History of Offense-vs.-Defense Super Bowls «

 

[StudioSaint]

...if you reread your post...

I understand your point of view, I just don't agree with it. I'm not trying to change your mind or prove you wrong. I'm just offering my point of view.

The crux of my post is that at the same points in their NFL careers, Payton has been more successful than Belichick. Nobody knew how good Belichick would go on to be, just like no one knows how the rest of Payton's career will play out.

It is possible to learn and improve at the same job. I don't think Payton needs the favor of being fired to get better. I think he has shown signs of learning and adapting. He tried the approach of leaving the defense to the DC. It resulted in one Superbowl win in 3 seasons and with him being the only NFL coach to ever be suspended for a season. I understand if he's reluctant to go that route again.

My guess is that the decision making of the entire organization was greatly affected by Bountygate. I can see how it could have caused over reaction and over compensation when it came to internal coaching structure, free agency approach, drafting and who knows what else behind the scenes. Drastic events like that take time to fully stabilize and recover from.

I think Payton and Loomis learned from their mistakes and got the Saints back on track 2 years ago. I think Payton trusts Dennis Allen and that Dennis Allen is a good enough DC to get the Saints back in Superbowl contention. I think the Saints will start winning again. I know I have no idea what the future actually holds, but I'm looking forward to seeing how the story unfolds for however many years the Saints and I have left in us.

 

[Saintshizzle]

I understand your point of view, I just don't agree with it. I'm not trying to change your mind or prove you wrong. I'm just offering my point of view.

The crux of my post is that at the same points in their NFL careers, Payton has been more successful than Belichick. Nobody knew how good Belichick would go on to be, just like no one knows how the rest of Payton's career will play out.

It is possible to learn and improve at the same job. I don't think Payton needs the favor of being fired to get better. I think he has shown signs of learning and adapting. He tried the approach of leaving the defense to the DC. It resulted in one Superbowl win in 3 seasons and with him being the only NFL coach to ever be suspended for a season. I understand if he's reluctant to go that route again.

My guess is that the decision making of the entire organization was greatly affected by Bountygate. I can see how it could have caused over reaction and over compensation when it came to internal coaching structure, free agency approach, drafting and who knows what else behind the scenes. Drastic events like that take time to fully stabilize and recover from.

I think Payton and Loomis learned from their mistakes and got the Saints back on track 2 years ago. I think Payton trusts Dennis Allen and that Dennis Allen is a good enough DC to get the Saints back in Superbowl contention. I think the Saints will start winning again. I know I have no idea what the future actually holds, but I'm looking forward to seeing how the story unfolds for however many years the Saints and I have left in us.

Heck, nothing wrong with optimism. I would not try to take you off of the podium, anymore than let you take me off of mine. I am a more result oriented person, than having a pie-in-the-sky outlook. So, just know that if we are getting wet, and everyone is saying its raining...I'm the first to make everyone look down, get your head out of the sky, and see the guy peeing on us. Very helpful attitude in my two careers, and it puts you in a better position to call a con...a con. Can be viewed as negative, someone who is real...heard it all. But, it's the attitude that somebody in our head office need to adopt, else there is no accountability.

Think about it, you said SP have learned, SP has tried to change, SP........and after 3 X 7-9 seasons?

What other team let's a coach have Carte Blanche like that? He would have been gone, long ago, anywhere else. I mean, we don't even have anyone to put him on Hot Seat. It really will take another failing year, if not two, for him to get tired and fire himself. What's worse would be having one good year, say 10-6/9-7 next year...and we go three more 7-9 seasons afterwards.

That's kinda how I can see us going with him. Again, I would eat a yard of crow, happily to be wrong...but I'm soured on his ability to coach defense or even work with the best DCs in the league., which means we are getting wet, but I don't see it as rain.

 

[insidejob]

People seem to be falling for the long con keeping this discussion going as it is.

 

[JRead2]

That's two years in a row we have a nfc south team in the superbowl

And it will be two years in a row a NFC South team has lost the Superbowl!