The Demonstrations in Minnesota (Update: Now Nationwide){Now International} (3 Viewers)

[GrandAdmiral]

And now Jake Fromm has stepped in a pile of it...

Woman explains why she released Jake Fromm text messages

The woman spoke to a local paper.

www.saturdaydownsouth.com

 

[N.O.Bronco]

Thank you, but djgreen00 was not the one who recorded it, just passed it along, as far as I can tell. The follow-up article is the real deal, but even that does not identify the armed citizen as a member of any group, just a random person who showed up with a gun to "defend" the hair salon.

We've lived through this disinformation campaign long enough to know we really can't assume anything without some sort of documentation, regardless of the implied political slant. Adding inflammatory text to an already disturbing video without citing details weakens the claim. The truth is bad enough. We need to take the time to give the facts.

This one moment in time is entirely of this woman's making. For context, this is the woman who refused to close her salon during the Covid quarantine. She now regrets her actions. (bold mine)

You can watch the video, which was linked to the article, which was easily found, which only makes the context worse, as you see the person reconvene and the group fits every profile picture of Oregon white supremacist/militia, including the signaling, like making up sheet to cops about violent ANTIFA rumors and decked out in right wing memes and trucks with militia memorabilia on it.

It doesn’t truly matter whether they are Proud Boys or not - but if it looks like a duck - that misses the core point, they are police officers disproportionately applying policing standards based on favoritism.

They plan to selectively enforce curfew against some through harsh means, while telling others to wait in their cars to avoid being treated like the lessers until the coast is clear and to avoid (correct) accusations of policing preferentially. This is the raw and often mundane ways in how the police machine operates to casually enforce white supremacy. White people being given the benefit of doubt and treated with respect and dignity, black people being presumed guilty and quick to use force to impose their will.

 

[Saint_Ward]

See here...pictures don’t tell the whole story. You don’t have any idea of what happened before those two photos were taken. He might have been armed. His pants are clearly not up. He could be hiding an RPG or suicide speedo or maybe even release some chemical agent on those heroes. Maybe even a flip phone with a camera on it. He looks to be missing a rubber off one of those wheels, he could use that like a belt to whip someone with or pull the other one off and roll a little faster to make a quick get away.
Do you really want that criminal rolling down your sidewalk?
Think about the heroic heroes man!

Clearly this is a joke, but in all seriousness, it just shows that the police really have no idea what they're doing when trying to handle crowd dispersal. They're shooting rubber bullets and other similar weapons indiscriminately. I think it's time to call for their banning. This is crazy.

In the pictures, I also see chaos and confusion.

 

[St. Widge]

There was a handout at the protest yesterday - to elaborate on this point - there is some sort of Miranda loophole (at least in New Orleans), that they can continue to question you even after you ask for a lawyer. Once you ask for a lawyer, it is important to continue not to say ANYTHING until the lawyer is there.

They also advised turning off location services, finger/face unlocking and stuff like that on your phone.

It's been a long time since I took Criminal Procedure or Con Law so the laws could have changed some, but my recollection is that if you talk even after invoking your Miranda Rights or your 5th Amendment rights, it is seen as a voluntary waiver of those rights. It's a grey area, but Police can't "coerce" you to waive those rights, but case law (at least the last time I looked at it) has at times found that Police can still talk to you and if you talk then it can count as a voluntary waiver of your rights. That's important because if you waive it, what you say can be used against you until you positively invoke those rights again.

Someone with more recent criminal law experience may know better, but that is my recollection of the state of Miranda Rights. But, I can't think of any reason why it would be different in New Orleans than in other places.

As far as phones, if you are in a protest you should resist the urge to take pictures or video. It could be used against you or others in the pictures. I mean, obviously the videos are also great for going after Cops doing things, but they could also be used against you. So, if you are going to take video or pictures just know that it is a double edged sword.

Edit: It's also important to note that even if you do talk after invoking Miranda or 5th Amendment Rights, you can still invoke those rights again. The waiver is not permanent. So don't let Police fool you into thinking that just because you made a mistake and said something that you can't still invoke your Miranda and/or 5th Amendment rights.

 

[N.O.Bronco]

Needs more views:




Perfect encapsulation about how we get in this cycle with our treatment of protests.


#6 is BY FAR the most important one.

 

[James Spader]

If George Floyd had beat police officers every day of his life, they still have no right to kill him. Their job is to detain him so he can have a trial.
The police clearly were at least trying to punish him after he was handcuffed. That act should be a felony in itself.

Exactly. That is why we need professionals in the police labor pool. It is a very difficult job.

 

[DaveXA]

Exactly. That is why we need professionals in the police labor pool. It is a very difficult job.

It's gonna take a complete paradigm shift in criminal justice for police and public safety to become truly effective at protecting and serving everyone in a fair way.

 

[Saint_Ward]

I didn't get to listen yet, and it's only on Facebook it seems, not youtube yet.

 

[SharonT]

It doesn’t truly matter whether they are Proud Boys or not - but if it looks like a duck - that misses the core point, they are police officers disproportionately applying policing standards based on favoritism.

I am well aware of the infiltration of white supremacists into law enforcement.

What I am trying to say, but you are not hearing, is that if you (we) don't take the time to post verifiable images, video, stories, etc, and instead post a drive-by like that one, it looks suspicious, like propaganda.

Find and cite a reputable source, give some context, or risk having the post removed.

Good propaganda contains a lot of truth, so pointing out the truthful portions does not mitigate the exaggeration, hyperbole, rumor, lies, or cooked-up causation added in for good measure.

 

[Saint_Ward]

I've spent a portion of this morning drafting a letter to local law enforcement and local mayors/councils.

All while I'm getting the hot water heater replaced (by my landlord's guy), and I think he got some water in the dry wall... great...

 

[St. Widge]

 

[DaveXA]

Lol, I like it.

 

[sammymvpknight]

It's gonna take a complete paradigm shift in criminal justice for police and public safety to become truly effective at protecting and serving everyone in a fair way.

I lived in Minnesota. One of the most liberal places in the country...with Minneapolis/St. Paul being one of the most liberal cities. Their entire government structure is liberal. Their mayor, who elects the police chief is liberal. Heck...the police chief is probably also liberal. You'd think that philosophically Minneapolis would be one of the better cities to be able to handle a system problem like this...right?

We can have the best rules, training, and structure known to man...but if we have police officers that do not respect the value of human life...then we're in trouble. It's going to take a heck of a lot to convince me that with better training and a better system that it would prevent this cop from being a racist killer. You have to change hearts...we have to find a way to prevent those at risk of being killer cops to NOT. If that doesn't happen, then we will continue to struggle. And it will continue to be a struggle in spite of our efforts because now police recruitment became that much more challenging. Who in their right minds would want to be a police officer right now? It's going to be those who struggle to find other work or those LOOKING for power and confrontation. And not to mention...it's an incredibly difficult thing to fight history and people's preconceived biases. There is literally no margin of error, so I'm not even sure that there are reasonable acceptable outcome measures.

 

[N.O.Bronco]

I am well aware of the infiltration of white supremacists into law enforcement.

What I am trying to say, but you are not hearing, is that if you (we) don't take the time to post verifiable images, video, stories, etc, and instead post a drive-by like that one, it looks suspicious, like propaganda.

Find and cite a reputable source, give some context, or risk having the post removed.

Good propaganda contains a lot of truth, so pointing out the truthful portions does not mitigate the exaggeration, hyperbole, rumor, lies, or cooked-up causation added in for good measure.

Those sorts of clips are all over this thread, literally the last several pages full of unsourced tweets, mine a lot less diffuse or unable to source than many.

It’s odd out of all those you singled out mine for scorn. It’s odd that you only singled out mine.

It’s fine, I get what you are asking, it’s just odd.

 

[DaveXA]

I lived in Minnesota. One of the most liberal places in the country...with Minneapolis/St. Paul being one of the most liberal cities. Their entire government structure is liberal. Their mayor, who elects the police chief is liberal. Heck...the police chief is probably also liberal. We can have the best rules and training known to man...but if we have police officers that do not respect the value of human life...then we're in trouble. It's going to take a heck of a lot to convince me that with better training and a better system that it would prevent this cop from being a racist killer. You have to change hearts...we have to find a way to prevent those at risk of being killer cops to NOT. If that doesn't happen, then we will continue to struggle. And it will continue to be a struggle in spite of our efforts because now police recruitment became that much more challenging. Who in their right minds would want to be a police officer right now? It's going to be those who struggle to find other work or those LOOKING for power and confrontation. And not to mention...it's an incredibly difficult thing to fight history and people's preconceived biases. There is literally no margin of error, so I'm not even sure that there are reasonable acceptable outcome measures.

You may be right. I'm seeing talk of defending the police, but not really seeing any comprehensive solutions that would make that approach workable. I certainly think a smaller, more efficient police force is viable. But to completely defend the police without any viable alternatives is to invite more problems than solutions. I don’t have the answers, though.