The Demonstrations in Minnesota (Update: Now Nationwide){Now International} (9 Viewers)

insidejob

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I'm starting a thread here for those who want to discuss the riots that have/are taking place because of the unspeakable inhumanity of that pathetic excuse for a police officer murdering a black man by kneeling on his neck for what I believe was ten minutes or so.

The other thread is about the murder and the discussion is getting derailed with the two topics going simultaneously. Of course I don't like to see riots ever happen, but I totally understand why they do when they make sense. This isn't Los Angeles looting and rioting because the Lakers won a championship. This is (even worse than) the Rodney King riots. After Philando Castile being murdered on camera and the cop getting acquitted in the same area of the state, if you can't understand why people are rioting now, here's the thread for you to find out. Racism is why they're rioting. They don't feel like there's another choice since this kind of thing keeps happening over and over again with little to no repercussions to the murderers in many cases.

Anyway, respect the other thread's topic and discussion and talk about your feelings about the riots - or rioting in general - in this thread if that's what you want to talk about.
 

DaveXA

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Wow. That's some forked up sheet to happen to a great guy.

I've had that title placed on me many times by white associates and friends, being the whitest black guy they know (it was also due to my complexion). After they got tired of my awkward looks and responses, the titled changed to "proper". But I knew what they meant and it still pisses me off...
I was guilty of doing that on occasion, but haven't done it a long time because hearing it said that way to me got old. I'm hard of hearing, to the point of profound deafness. And people would tell me how articulate and smart I was, and it made me uncomfortable because the focus was on my deafness more than me. I always shrugged it off, but for a long time I never thought about how it would made someone else feel to say they don't fit a stereotype. People, myself included, don't like being put in a neat little box to fit preconceived notions. I'm conscious of it now and try to pay more attention to what i say.
 

Oye

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I’m “attending” this Zoom panel conference right now. There are 700+ of us in the call.

I’ve said before that we need to listen. And I know that’s not always easy because a lot of us don’t have real authentic contact with Black people and communities.

And social distancing has made this harder.

except where it’s made this easier. There are all sorts of distance opportunities that are out there. Like this one.

a panel of black scholars and academics, whose backgrounds are in social work and policing and law and incarceration and education and other fields.

but also as Black Americans who are living through this right now as Black Americans.

 

Denzien

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SANTA ANA, Calif. (AP) — In the latest move to change place names in light of U.S. racial history, leaders of Orange County’s Democratic Party are pushing to drop film legend John Wayne’s name, statue and other likenesses from the county’s airport because of his racist and bigoted comments.

The Los Angeles Times reported that earlier this week, officials passed an emergency resolution condemning Wayne’s “racist and bigoted statements” made in a 1971 interview and are calling on the Orange County Board of Supervisors to drop his name, statue and other likenesses from the international airport.

The resolution asked the board “to restore its original name: Orange County Airport.”..........

He's not even a real Wayne
 

Optimus Prime

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Walmart will stop selling "All Lives Matter" merchandise on its website, a phrase that is typically used to counter Black Lives Matter protesters, for taking focus away from the "painful reality of racial inequity."...………..

 
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You claimed that it was the protests that brought action. All I'm saying is that it was coming, regardless of the protests and most likely at the next election. All the protests did was push the legislature to act now rather than allow it to go to a vote.
Protests work. And I didn't ever claim that ONLY protests work. The legislature *voted*. It's how we do laws in America.
 
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Protests work. And I didn't ever claim that ONLY protests work. The legislature *voted*. It's how we do laws in America.
Then why didn't you say that when you replied to me before?
So why do you have to add in your "yeah but the only way it passed..."?
Because it was the protests which brought about the action.
And what were you implying here if it wasn't a claim that it only passed because the legislature pushed it through due to the pressure of the protests? If that isn't what it implies then what is it that you know and I won't accept?
we do know. You may not want to accept, but that's not the same as not knowing.
The protests may have forced the issue, but it was something that was going to happen anyway and as I said, I am of the opinion that it would have passed based on my local experience. You may want to deny that it was coming, but you just don't have mass cities, counties, businesses, advocacy groups, news outlets and individuals dropping the flag, bringing attention to the cause and calling for it's removal and not bring it to a vote. That's not the outside protests at work, that's the state of Mississippi. All the protests did was hasten the brief inevitable.
 

guidomerkinsrules

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Then why didn't you say that when you replied to me before?



And what were you implying here if it wasn't a claim that it only passed because the legislature pushed it through due to the pressure of the protests? If that isn't what it implies then what is it that you know and I won't accept?


The protests may have forced the issue, but it was something that was going to happen anyway and as I said, I am of the opinion that it would have passed based on my local experience. You may want to deny that it was coming, but you just don't have mass cities, counties, businesses, advocacy groups, news outlets and individuals dropping the flag, bringing attention to the cause and calling for it's removal and not bring it to a vote. That's not the outside protests at work, that's the state of Mississippi. All the protests did was hasten the brief inevitable.
all y'all are arguing is whether the protests were the ONLY reason for the change
which neither of you are arguing
you're both saying essentially the same thing without realizing it
 

DaveXA

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all y'all are arguing is whether the protests were the ONLY reason for the change
which neither of you are arguing
you're both saying essentially the same thing without realizing it
Yeah, the discussion feels like it's going in circles with no off ramp. Both have made their point and let's move on.
 

Grandadmiral

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You claimed that it was the protests that brought action. All I'm saying is that it was coming, regardless of the protests and most likely at the next election. All the protests did was push the legislature to act now rather than allow it to go to a vote.
Maybe, just maybe the legislature decided they don't trust the voters to decide this again and saved Mississippi from a 2001 result. It's bad enough that Mississippi is last at doing something right again.
 
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Maybe, just maybe the legislature decided they don't trust the voters to decide this again and saved Mississippi from a 2001 result. It's bad enough that Mississippi is last at doing something right again.
That's exactly the point I tried to make. Rather than the people of the state voting on it and it being a healing moment for the state & the country as a whole, it has the appearance of being forced through. If you're a black person, how much better does it feel if a white majority votes for a change rather than the 'only reason it happened was the state government caved under outside pressure and didn't trust the voters?' It almost makes this change meaningless, which disappoints me greatly. Nobody really believes that we wanted to change it, so what does it really matter? Black people don't have to look at it anymore, but does that make them feel any better about their white neighbors? I doubt it. If I were a black person I'd still believe that the overwhelming majority would rather see the stars & bars because that's what they last saw 20 years ago.

And yes, maybe they did save us from the same result, but I don't believe that and now we'll never know.
 
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Loose Cannon

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That's exactly the point I tried to make. Rather than the people of the state voting on it and it being a healing moment for the state & the country as a whole, it has the appearance of being forced through. If you're a black person, how much better does it feel if a white majority votes for a change rather than the 'only reason it happened was the state government caved under outside pressure and didn't trust the voters?' It almost makes this change meaningless, which disappoints me greatly. Nobody really believes that we wanted to change it, so what does it really matter? Black people don't have to look at it anymore, but does that make them feel any better about their white neighbors? I doubt it. If I were a black person I'd still believe that the overwhelming majority would rather see the stars & bars because that's what they last saw 20 years ago.
Yeah, I'm sure that the black community is just devastated that they protested and made their voices heard across the country, made sweeping inroads with social awareness and drastically shifted perception, and got a bunch of racist **** banned. That they were able to rise up and take control of the narrative and create one of the largest social movements of my lifetime, hand in hand with white people, brown people, and everything in between.

I bet they get absolutely no satisfaction from that because they didn't wait around for a bunch of racist white people to change the flag on their own accord and say "look here! see what we gave you!"

You're really nailing the whole "try to put yourself in their shoes" thing. Keep it up. :winkthumb:
 

Oye

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I’m “attending” this Zoom panel conference right now. There are 700+ of us in the call.

I’ve said before that we need to listen. And I know that’s not always easy because a lot of us don’t have real authentic contact with Black people and communities.

And social distancing has made this harder.

except where it’s made this easier. There are all sorts of distance opportunities that are out there. Like this one.

a panel of black scholars and academics, whose backgrounds are in social work and policing and law and incarceration and education and other fields.

but also as Black Americans who are living through this right now as Black Americans.

so, I am not under the delusion that anyone will read this. But as I listened to the four panelists and facilitator - all Black, 2 males and 2 females and the panel chair was female - I took some notes.

I do *NOT* like conferences. Mainly because I hate people and have social anxiety. So a Zoom conference like this is something I can get with. I posted these notes over at MAP, but thought I'd follow up here.

Again, I know most people probably will scroll past, but for my own sense of closure, I'm gonna paste my notes here.

I couldn't really capture the entire Zoom panel, but I wanted to try and list a few of the topics that they hit on that were worth mentioning as they came up:

  • it opened with each panelist talking about how the individually, emotionally talked about their responses to the current situation
    • to summarize, roughly, there was this bittersweet tension between hope and optimism and fatigue and anger. The positives that is this is a moment not seen since the Motown movement and, before that, the fight for emancipation. That so many people, from so many walks of life opening their minds to listen and see the racism. But also anger that it should not have taken this long. Fatigue from fighting this for so long, by themselves.
  • The history of agreements between district attorneys and prosecutors with law enforcement to get deals that oppress Black Americans
  • a focus on how prison systems and staff extend the racist arm of the law. Examples cited included:
    • sexual assault perpetrated against Black inmates by white staff members
    • relationships of cooperation between white staff members and incarcerated white supremacists
    • the rumor-mongering of Blacks threatening white supremacists, even when unfounded, to lead to instances of physical harm against Black inmates
    • security staff members equipping white supremacists with actual weapons while Black inmates are having to fashion their own, cruder weapons (e.g. shanks)
  • A reference to reading James Baldwin's "Fifth Avenue, Uptown"
  • a reference to Connick vs. Thompson (New Orleans case)
  • a really interesting point that white people want to be the victims and the oppressors - white people in the US having a tendency to want it all, across all facets of society. And even this - which is a sort of arrogance on the part of white people. The need to be victims, oppressors, and saviors. One panelist found this odd and frustrating.
  • The role that police unions and fraternal orders of police play in protecting these officers
  • the reality that these organizations receive preferential treatment by default in local and state negotiations, as if they are not at fault and don't have to 'prove themselves' as worthy or even competent
  • Reparations in society - discussions around education, material support. Attacking homelessness and houselessness and healthcare. These are bare expectations.
  • Reparations re: defunding in law enforcement - look at the funding agencies to transform punishment to rehabilitation. Moving away from punishment and torture designs to things that can work through knowledge and building up when possible
  • research partnerships established with police themselves - publicly funded support needs more access to publicly funded services, like education and the police. But the police are the most resistant to this
    • one example that was specifically cited was the disinclination and refusal to participate in studies to examine the efficacy of body camera usage in policing
  • Shaming and "internet justice" isn't really justice. It doesn't do anything for the marginalized peoples but it contributes to a sense of justice that whites external to the trauma and punishment of Blacks feel is happening, but doesn't actually impact on the oppression and marginalization
  • State and local legislatures need to be a bigger focus - not just Federal, which dominates too much of the discussion
  • Emphasis on jails rather than prisons when it comes to the racialized nature of the systemic injustice
  • The debates over Confederate Monuments - let's talk about not just taking down, but what merits going up. Why can't abolitionists be memorialized? This could be reparations. Because it's not just a discussion about what comes down but also what goes up. That's inspiring.
  • A police officer responsible for the torturing of over 100 Black men becoming part of the Chicago school curriculum, so that AP US History includes things like that and lynching - that history about these things exist. Lynchings as terrorism. The frame of "white criminality" is part of curriculum reparations
  • The history of police protecting "stuff" and defending "stuff" and investigating the recovery of "stuff" and this is usually white capital and property, as opposed to feeling like the police, as an institution, is not protecting Black People - it's wielded against Black people, in fact, often in favor of white people's "stuff." So the hierarchy is that white people's 'stuff' is more important than Black people
  • Police culture > police individuals. The state (law and policy), the legal (lawyers who manage it) combine to create a system is 'reinvigorated' through a line of knowledge - even created and re-created by academics. We need to understand the current context and what rebellion would look like (it's not 1799 in Haiti). You can be amicable with a police officer - even a Black one in their community - but the individual is also separate from the system and the culture. We are trying to address the latter, not the latter
  • Good cops vs. Bad cops - what do good cops look like? Are they whistle blowers? Then where are they? And if they cannot step forward out of fear - which is the assumption - that's the problem. How can we argue the good outnumber the bad?
    • example: a group of retired Black officers and members of the Fraternal Order of Police took a knee, symbolically, and there was no white officer who supported them
  • People are too focused on the killings of cops but we need to look at things like the 13th amendment and it's about the wider sense of what the word "law" means and what it refers to - law as horizon rather than a set of tactics
  • Discussion on what a post-abolition world would look like for each of the four panelists
    • one example is that we turn to institutions to trust rather than people, and we trust the political structure and the legal structure and the law enforcement structure, but we don't look at individuals and their stories. Because we don't 'trust and care' in one another - instead, we trust institutions
    • but a couple of panelists said that we don't know and that's the toughest challenge - we've never had it, we've never really seen it. And, as a result, without a vision or a goal, it is difficult to work toward something specifically
    • there was a collective skepticism when it comes to 'The State'
Alright, I tried to capture as much as I could, but it was difficult to listen and record some impressions.

Thanks.
 

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