The Dereck Chauvin trial (6 Viewers)

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I don’t have much to say about this but if you heard the testimony of some of the prosecutions witnesses today and didn’t have a tear in your eye you aren’t human. Yes the man had a criminal record, yes the man had drugs in his body but he didn’t deserve to die like that. Could the drugs have killed him???? Maybe. Did he have other health conditions that could’ve killed him???? Maybe. But that cop took those decisions into his on hands and brought about an outrage in this country that’s been at the surface for a long time. God it’s time we turn to you.
 

bigdaddysaints

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so, if I shoot someone in the chest that has a heart condition, they die because their heart couldn't take the stress that someone with a healthy heart could have easily survived, wouldn't be murder? hishealth condition should play ZERO role.
 

Optimus Prime

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That 10 minutes makes the poor health/drug arguments weak

What is third-degree murder?
Initially, Chauvin faced an additional charge of third-degree murder, but Cahill dismissed that charge and denied a request from the prosecution to reinstate it. The Minnesota Court of Appeals ruled Friday that the judge was wrong to refuse reinstating the third-degree murder charge and sent the case back to Cahill for consideration. After the Minnesota Supreme Court declined to consider an appeal from the defense, Cahill reinstated the charge Thursday. It also carries a presumptive sentence in this case of 10 3⁄4 years to 15 years, according to state sentencing guidelines.

Third-degree murder requires prosecutors to prove that someone caused the death of another "by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life." Legal experts note that the definition of "depraved mind" is murky— as is the legal line between "depraved mind" and the "culpable negligence" standard for manslaughter.

What was the judges rationale for initially dismissing the 3rd degree charge?

This seems to be a textbook example of "without regard for human life"
 

tomwaits

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I don't think anyone is saying the current system for accountability isn't crap. They're say a large reason for crap accountability is driven by racism. And you can't expect to scrap the current system without dealing with the problem of racism. They go hand in hand. An overhaul of accountability without dealing with racism still leaves us with a broken accountability system.
If your "reformed" accountability system can be that corrupted by racism, than the reform you are looking at will fail. You absolutely can scrap the current system and implement reforms independently of the racism issue. Not only can it be done, that must be the way it is done if it has any chance of actual reform.
 

St. Widge

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That 10 minutes makes the poor health/drug arguments weak




What was the judges rationale for initially dismissing the 3rd degree charge?

This seems to be a textbook example of "without regard for human life"

According to the article, "Historically, third-degree murder has been used to prosecute drug dealers who sold deadly products but weren't planning to kill specific individuals. But in 2019, former Minneapolis police officer Mohamed Noor was convicted of third-degree murder in the death of Justine Ruszczyk Damond after she called 911 to report a possible sexual assault in progress in the alley near her house. Noor fatally shot Damond from the passenger seat of a squad car, firing across his partner, who had been driving. The state Court of Appeals narrowly upheld his conviction, and the state Supreme Court will hear the case in June. Noor is currently serving a 10½-year sentence. He is the only police officer ever to be convicted of murder for an on-duty incident in Minnesota.

Explaining his decision to reinstate the third-degree murder charge Thursday, Cahill noted that the Noor ruling established a legal precedent that "murder in the third degree applies even if the person's intent and acts are directed at a single person," and therefore the charge could be applicable to the Chauvin case."

So, I think the reason the Judge initially dismissed it is because he thought it only applied to cases where the defendant acted recklessly, but not to a specific person. But, the Court of appeal ruled differently.
 

Madmarsha

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so, if I shoot someone in the chest that has a heart condition, they die because their heart couldn't take the stress that someone with a healthy heart could have easily survived, wouldn't be murder? hishealth condition should play ZERO role.
Just because the judge allows that defense to be put into evidence doesn't mean the jurors will believe it or accept it. I mean, I wouldn't.
 
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DaveXA

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If your "reformed" accountability system can be that corrupted by racism, than the reform you are looking at will fail. You absolutely can scrap the current system and implement reforms independently of the racism issue. Not only can it be done, that must be the way it is done if it has any chance of actual reform.
I guess we just have a fundamental difference of opinion on whether you can reform the system without including racism as one of the main pillars of reform. I don't think it's possible for the simple reason that minorities will still have reason to think accountability is applied equally across all of the police jurisdictions.

I guess at this point let's agree to disagree and see where all this debate takes us.
 

DaveXA

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The medical testimony of the past couple days have been damning to Chauvin
Yeah, I was worried the drug history and heart condition would muddy the waters a bit, but so far, it seems clear the knee on his neck was the primary cause of death.
 

LAhotsauce

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I think Simpson was a different animal, in a much different time, and without video. But just among the quick hits:
  1. Frankly the glove thing was a mistake. The glove hadn't been worn in some time, had a liner inside it, and what is there to gain? Of course it wasn't going to fit. And if it had fit, all Johnny Cochran would have said is, well a glove of size whatever fits 91% of the population, so why do we even care? It proves nothing, etc, etc. Whether it should have meant much, the glove not fitting was a "defining moment" a jury will certainly remember.
  2. DNA was still relatively new, and the prosecution didn't necessarily present it well. (And they didn't even mention it in their closing argument perhaps for the reason that they realized the jury didn't take to it.)
  3. They put a cop on the stands they knew had racist statements in the past.
I don't think the comparisons are there 25+ years later, though I know the point you were getting at.
I've had leather gloves for a few years with a lining. They fit me now the same as when I bought them. Leather gloves with a lining shrink? How much time is required for this to happen? Of course mine stay inside in a dark closet until needed, which isn't very often.

And we're talking about the early 90s LAPD, whom had been corrupt and racist for decades. This went way beyond just making racist statements. Mark Furhman was put on the stand and asked if he ever falsified police reports or ever planted evidence. Instead of plainly saying "No I have not", this white supremacist idiot pleads the 5th. This testimony was not presented to the jury.

 

LAhotsauce

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The murder of George Floyd is a direct outgrowth of white supremacy. White males are terrified of what they perceive as a loss of power and, as the most entitled and self-serving demographic in the country, will do anything to hold on to "their" power. The USA continues to incarcerate blacks at a higher rate than South Africa did under Apartheid.

In the aftermath of the Civil War, the entitled white planters of the south began to lose their power as their slaves and servants were freed. Union troops enforced new laws protecting freed blacks. The white planter class reacted to this by forming the KKK, which continues to this day as the Proud Boys and other white supremacist groups.

The only way whites have given up their power is when changes are mandated and power is taken from them. Derek Chauvin is a white supremacist and murdered George Floyd in accordance with white supremacist views.
There is a documentary on Amazon Prime that talks about the formation of the KKK. It's been out for a while now.

Oddly enough, the KKK was started by 2nd (or 1st) gen Scots/Irish immigrants in Pulaski, TN who fought for the confederacy. Some of the largest plantations were owned by Scots/Irish. People whom had been given land in Appalachia and the South upon coming to this country. Yet whenever someone starts talking about things like reparations and justice for African Americans, somebody has to bring up "well whatabout the Irish?" Even the use of the word "Klan" and the cross burning comes from old Scottish customs.

Here is the documentary. There's more to learn in it. It's interesting.

 
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The defense is asking a lot of questions about drugs and Floyd's health

What difference does that make?

Even if Floyd did have a weakened heart due to drug use and a perfectly healthy man would have survived the knee to the neck it was still the stress/panic/trauma of the knee to the neck that triggered his death.

What would that change?

Wouldn't we still be here at this same trial with the same charges?
Prehaps the argument is that the knee had nothing to do with the death...that there was minimal force...and Floyd died of a heart attack. I don’t think that is likely to be true, but spitballing here
 
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so, if I shoot someone in the chest that has a heart condition, they die because their heart couldn't take the stress that someone with a healthy heart could have easily survived, wouldn't be murder? hishealth condition should play ZERO role.
The defense would argue that you actually shot a nerf gun
 

J-Donk

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so, if I shoot someone in the chest that has a heart condition, they die because their heart couldn't take the stress that someone with a healthy heart could have easily survived, wouldn't be murder? hishealth condition should play ZERO role.
I agree with you, but I think a better analogy is tasing someone. Police got a free pass on that one for decades.
 

Waymer

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I've had leather gloves for a few years with a lining. They fit me now the same as when I bought them. Leather gloves with a lining shrink? How much time is required for this to happen? Of course mine stay inside in a dark closet until needed, which isn't very often.

And we're talking about the early 90s LAPD, whom had been corrupt and racist for decades. This went way beyond just making racist statements. Mark Furhman was put on the stand and asked if he ever falsified police reports or ever planted evidence. Instead of plainly saying "No I have not", this white supremacist idiot pleads the 5th. This testimony was not presented to the jury.

To be more clear, I meant he was wearing a protective glove under the glove. That’s what I meant by liner.
 

Optimus Prime

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This is low, petty and meaningless

“all the sympathy Floyd got when the world thought he was calling out for his dead mother, it turns out he was calling for his girlfriend”

I know the attorney has a job to do but what’s the point here

===========================


MINNEAPOLIS (AP) — Derek Chauvin’s defense attorney was questioning George Floyd’s girlfriend about the couple buying drugs when he abruptly shifted gears for what seemed an innocuous question: He presumed the couple had pet names for each other. Under what name, he asked, did she appear in Floyd’s phone?

Courteney Ross first smiled at the question, then paused before replying: “Mama.”

The fleeting exchange called into question the widely reported account that Floyd was crying out for his deceased mother as he lay pinned to the pavement.

And it appeared to be one in a series of moves aimed at undermining a dominant narrative of Floyd’s death — established through bystander video and saturation news coverage and commentary — of a reckless, arrogant cop ignoring a man’s “I can’t breathe” cries as his life is snuffed out.............

 

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