The Derek Chauvin trial {Mod Edit: Guilty on all charges} (2 Viewers)

how do you imagine they are separate discussions?
modern policing has roots in slave patrols and jim crow enforcement
the FBI has demonstrated for decades that white nationalists have infiltrated polices forces of all sizes across the country
how do you imagine police reform is a separate conversation from race relations?

Easily

The problem is the government has agents who violate people's rights through violence and are not held accountable. They have been shown that they violate right of people of any race.

Why would you want to focus on race? If racism in the police was magically gone, they would still be violating people's rights, nothing is solved.
The only answer I could see you having is that you are ok with police violating people but you want it in the exact same ratio to match demographics.
I am not ok with them doing it at all. That should be the focus.

If someone with no power is a racist, sure it sucks but they don't have power to do much about it.

Police have unchecked power, so if they are racists then it has a big consequence. The fix is to check the power, but it seems to get lost and bogged down with the race issue. Its to a degree that "anti-racists" attack a senator who is actually proposing bills to check police power. So you can't say its not getting bogged down by the race issue, because it clearly is.
 
Do I think this should be about racism? No, I don't. But am I going to convince anyone? No. I mean, I think this is about police procedures and dumb cops possibly drunk with the power of a badge. Do I have an answer for it? No, because that's exactly what attracts the kind of person who will use that like a weapon. This gives me a headache thinking about.

James Baldwin said that white Americans are "in effect still trapped in a history which they do not understand and until they understand it, they cannot be released from it."

As a man, it would be audacious to tell women there is no correlation between rape and misogyny. Females are undeniably and overwhelmingly disproportionately victims of rape and the misogynistic culture they live in is a direct cause of why. I can't begin to fix rape without addressing misogyny.

Empathy is needed. Police reform can't happen without addressing racism. Saying they are separate issues is willingly remaining trapped in our country's history that white America continously seems to want to remain trapped in. This situation, this trial, isn't isolated. Let's not treat it as such.
 
James Baldwin said that white Americans are "in effect still trapped in a history which they do not understand and until they understand it, they cannot be released from it."

As a man, it would be audacious to tell women there is no correlation between rape and misogyny. Females are undeniably and overwhelmingly disproportionately victims of rape and the misogynistic culture they live in is a direct cause of why. I can't begin to fix rape without addressing misogyny.

Empathy is needed. Police reform can't happen without addressing racism. Saying they are separate issues is willingly remaining trapped in our country's history that white America continously seems to want to remain trapped in. This situation, this trial, isn't isolated. Let's not treat it as such.

It absolutely can.
 
The thread is about a trial of a cop who murdered someone.
It's about a white cop who killed an unarmed black man, framed in the context of a pattern of white cops killing unarmed black men.
From what I am hearing race was not mentioned in the trial.
Irrelevant.
We also KNOW that police have and will kill people of any color.
No disagreements, but we also know that police consistently kill black people at a rate higher than whites.
The issue is police accountability.
Certainly. Police accountability and systemic racism are not mutually exclusive.
If Floyd had been low income, redneck trailer park guy with Floyd's same record and history with Chauvin, it likely would have gone the same way.
I imagine Chauvin has interacted with plenty of redneck trailer park guys with similar records to Floyd, and yet none of them are dead at his hands.
 
It absolutely can.

I'm not so sure. If you don't address the problem of racism in police departments, you can dress up the police in all kinds of nice reforms, but when the rubber meets the road, the disconnect will inevitably happen when racist individual cops interact with the public. Both have to be addressed. Otherwise, years into the reforms you want, we'll still be talking about tragedies like what we saw in the Floyd killing.
 
It absolutely can.

So, why hasn't it been solved yet Tom? That's like attempting to solve rape without addressing misogyny with the basis being well men are sexually assaulted and raped too. We are ALL victims. Not equally my friend. Law enforcement has an abuse of power and subverting rights issue but one demographic disproportionately experiences those issues more than others. Undeniably. How can possibly have police reform without resolving their white supremacy problem and how can you possibly address white supremacy without addressing race?

Lost in a history you don't understand.
 
Certainly. Police accountability and systemic racism are not mutually exclusive.

Yes they are.

I imagine Chauvin has interacted with plenty of redneck trailer park guys with similar records to Floyd, and yet none of them are dead at his hands.

My point, which I thought was clear, was that if Floyd had been a low class white dude in the same exact situation, he would still be dead.
 
It absolutely can.
Let me see if I follow.

You're saying that police reform CAN happen without addressing racism. Let's break that down a minute. Which of these is the implication of your statement?

A) There are no racist police officers, therefore racism does not need to be addressed for police reform to occur.
B) There are racist police officers, but we can reform the racism out of them without ever actually addressing racism.
C) There are racist police officers, but we can reform in such a manner (without addressing racism) that will allow them to remain racist but will not allow their racism to affect their work.
D) Something else?
 
You're delusional if you think the crowd intervening physically would have had a higher probability of a peaceful ending than not.

In the meantime, the rest of us will continue to live in reality.

Uh, I agree with you....read my post again, or am I missing something here?
 
Easily

The problem is the government has agents who violate people's rights through violence and are not held accountable. They have been shown that they violate right of people of any race.

Why would you want to focus on race? If racism in the police was magically gone, they would still be violating people's rights, nothing is solved.
The only answer I could see you having is that you are ok with police violating people but you want it in the exact same ratio to match demographics.
I am not ok with them doing it at all. That should be the focus.

If someone with no power is a racist, sure it sucks but they don't have power to do much about it.

Police have unchecked power, so if they are racists then it has a big consequence. The fix is to check the power, but it seems to get lost and bogged down with the race issue. Its to a degree that "anti-racists" attack a senator who is actually proposing bills to check police power. So you can't say its not getting bogged down by the race issue, because it clearly is.
there is no fix to the racism problem without also addressing power imbalance
OTOH you could easily paper of the 'power' imbalance with some 'no child left behind' or 'all lives matter' type rhetoric
the libertarian urge to treat the symptom and not the disease will continue to fail
 
Let me see if I follow.

You're saying that police reform CAN happen without addressing racism. Let's break that down a minute. Which of these is the implication of your statement?

A) There are no racist police officers, therefore racism does not need to be addressed for police reform to occur.
B) There are racist police officers, but we can reform the racism out of them without ever actually addressing racism.
C) There are racist police officers, but we can reform in such a manner (without addressing racism) that will allow them to remain racist but will not allow their racism to affect their work.
D) Something else?

The closes is C, but I am not saying we don't address racism. I am saying police accountability can be implemented totally apart form addressing racism even though both should occur. I don't even understand how this is confusing.
 
there is no fix to the racism problem without also addressing power imbalance
OTOH you could easily paper of the 'power' imbalance with some 'no child left behind' or 'all lives matter' type rhetoric
the libertarian urge to treat the symptom and not the disease will continue to fail

Unchecked power is a disease.
 

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