The Derek Chauvin trial {Mod Edit: Guilty on all charges} (3 Viewers)

[sfidc3]

This is where I am confused if you're saying you agree....

you're saying that people fail to realize that intervening with cops may NOT turn out to be a disaster for all involved.

99% of the time, messing with cops in the line of duty is going to end up bad for EVERYONE involved trying to obstruct them from carrying out their responsibilities (even if what they are doing is later to be found as an abuse of power).

Ah, yes....Dave is correct, I should not have included....not....

I suspect the not part was inadvertently inserted there.

 

[Optimus Prime]

Powerful comments from Dr. Cornell West on Don Lemon last night






Full video here

Cornel West: You Enslaved Us, You Aren't Going To Kill Us Like George Floyd; "We've Got To Self-Defense"

Dr. Cornel West's commentary on race in America and the trial of Derek Chauvin, the former police officer that is charged with the murder of George Floyd left CNN host Don Lemon in tears Thursday night when he spoke about the need for black people not to remain "spectators" to violence but to...

www.realclearpolitics.com

 

[Optimus Prime]

Evidence presented this week in Derek Chauvin’s trial on charges that he murdered George Floyd showed a national audience how the former Minneapolis police officer saw his alleged victim: as a dangerous, “sizable” Black man who had to be controlled, subdued and forced to submit. The message Chauvin sent with his actions wasn’t intended for Floyd alone, and it’s one Black Americans have heard for centuries.

Chauvin didn’t see Floyd as a citizen suspected of a minor, nonviolent crime or as the gentle “mama’s boy” Floyd’s girlfriend, Courteney Ross, described. To Chauvin and the other officers, Floyd was guilty from the start — guilty of inhabiting an imposing Black male body, a circumstance that has always been a punishable offense in this country.
As witness Charles McMillian tried to tell Floyd when the officers first put their hands on him: “You can’t win.”

For me, McMillian’s Wednesday testimony was the most heartbreaking so far — and, sadly, the least surprising. At 61, he has lived long enough to know all about the criminalization of Black manhood. He cried on the witness stand as he described feeling “helpless” while Floyd — pinned to the ground, with Chauvin’s knee on his neck — cried out for his late mother. “I don’t have a mama either,” McMillian said. “I understand him.”

After the May 25, 2020, encounter was over, and Floyd’s limp and apparently lifeless body had been taken away by paramedics, McMillian is heard on bystander video bravely confronting Chauvin about his actions. Chauvin’s response says everything about the lens through which he saw Floyd: “We’ve got to control this guy because he’s a sizable guy. Looks like he’s probably on something.”

Think about the fact that Chauvin and the other officers thought they had to “control” Floyd in the first place. And think about how they initiated their encounter with him..........

Opinion | Black Americans all got Derek Chauvin’s message. Loud and clear. - The Washington Post

 

[Big_L]

Let me spell this out for you I guess.

Police accountability can be implemented without addressing racism.
Racism in police should be addressed also.
These 2 things can happen exclusively of one another.
Police accountability discussions have stalled because all the focus is on race.

I work in a police department. I have stayed out of this so far due to the fact that I have my issues with police management. I will say this, accountability is most definitely tied in to racism. I have seen white officers not even get a verbal counseling for issues that myself and other black officers have faced termination over (calling another officer lazy, etc). I don't think most cops are racist, however one can observe the racial . . . undertones when dealing with suspects of different races under similar circumstances. If racial disparities are addressed, accountability for each officer will go up. A lot of problems will be settled. It's almost as if being a racist piece of work emboldens individuals and they descend down that slippery slope into being something so perverse, it's hard to comprehend how they were even hired in the first place.

 

[Dago]

Yeah, I haven't much of the trial, but if he's shown to treat others differently like that, I can't see how the jury would mistake this for anything other than willfully killing Floyd.

That doesn't mean it was willfull killing. It does show intentional mistreatment and the death was a result of that intentional mistreatment. It's a fine line, but I don't like to try to play mind reader.

Either way, the verdict is the same IMO

 

[Saintman2884]

Do you fear for your life upon being pulled over by a police officer?

If I'm a drug mule, human or sex trafficker, a devious, long-time secret paedophile who drives around spying on, propositioning underage minors and some undercover vice cops start following you and gathering evidence to one morning break down your front door to arrest you or pull you over to arrest you ala for sex crimes, pedophilia, corruption of minors, possession of child pornography, you may not be killed or necessarily be afraid your life will end once you've been arrested, but figuratively and literally from a legal perspective, your life is over and considering how even hardcore criminals feel and act towards pedophiles, sex offenders and child abusers, by the time they reach general population in a federal Supermax, it might be a death sentence.

Never underestimate the grim meaning behind this prison mantra: Sex offenders and pedophiles are the pariahs of the prison yard.

 

[tomwaits]

I work in a police department. I have stayed out of this so far due to the fact that I have my issues with police management. I will say this, accountability is most definitely tied in to racism. I have seen white officers not even get a verbal counseling for issues that myself and other black officers have faced termination over (calling another officer lazy, etc). I don't think most cops are racist, however one can observe the racial . . . undertones when dealing with suspects of different races under similar circumstances. If racial disparities are addressed, accountability for each officer will go up. A lot of problems will be settled. It's almost as if being a racist piece of work emboldens individuals and they descend down that slippery slope into being something so perverse, it's hard to comprehend how they were even hired in the first place.

So I am saying the current system for accountability is crap.
You saying that racism is a problem in the current system is not an argument against scrapping the current accountability system for a better one, its an argument for scrapping the current system.

 

[DaveXA]

So I am saying the current system for accountability is crap.
You saying that racism is a problem in the current system is not an argument against scrapping the current accountability system for a better one, its an argument for scrapping the current system.

I don't think anyone is saying the current system for accountability isn't crap. They're say a large reason for crap accountability is driven by racism. And you can't expect to scrap the current system without dealing with the problem of racism. They go hand in hand. An overhaul of accountability without dealing with racism still leaves us with a broken accountability system.

 

[DaveXA]

Well, the police chief made some remarks that made it pretty much impossible for the cops involved to claim they followed what they were trained to do. From everything I've seen and heard so far, I'd be surprised if the jury took very long to hand down a verdict.

 

[Optimus Prime]

Well, the police chief made some remarks that made it pretty much impossible for the cops involved to claim they followed what they were trained to do. From everything I've seen and heard so far, I'd be surprised if the jury took very long to hand down a verdict.

I had read that even before George Floyd plenty of people in Minneapolis would dispute that the police had "the core value of treating everyone with "dignity and respect."

But it's good that the chief gave this testimony. It looking more and more that a guilty verdict is certain
=======================================================

Minneapolis Police Chief Medaria Arradondo on Monday thoroughly rejected Derek Chauvin's actions during the arrest of George Floyd last May as contrary to department policy.

"Once Mr. Floyd had stopped resisting, and certainly once he was in distress and trying to verbalize that, that should have stopped," Arradondo testified during Chauvin's criminal trial.

"There is an initial reasonableness in trying to get him under control in the first few seconds," Arradondo said. "But once there was no longer any resistance and clearly when Mr. Floyd was no longer responsive and even motionless, to continue to apply that level of force to a person proned out, handcuffed behind their back -- that in no way shape or form is anything that is by policy. It is not part of our training, and it is certainly not part of our ethics or our values."

In particular, the chief said Chauvin's kneeling on Floyd's neck for nine minutes and 29 seconds is not a trained tactic and was a violation of the policies around de-escalation, objectively reasonable use of force and requirement to render aid.

"That action is not de-escalation, and when we talk about the framework of our sanctity of life and when we talk about the principles and values we have, that action goes contrary to what we're talking about," he said................

George Floyd: Police chief says Derek Chauvin's actions were 'in no way, shape or form' proper policy (msn.com)

 

[Optimus Prime]

The defense is asking a lot of questions about drugs and Floyd's health

What difference does that make?

Even if Floyd did have a weakened heart due to drug use and a perfectly healthy man would have survived the knee to the neck it was still the stress/panic/trauma of the knee to the neck that triggered his death.

What would that change?

Wouldn't we still be here at this same trial with the same charges?

 

[St. Widge]

The defense is asking a lot of questions about drugs and Floyd's health

What difference does that make?

Even if Floyd did have a weakened heart due to drug use and a perfectly healthy man would have survived the knee to the neck it was still the stress/panic/trauma of the knee to the neck that triggered his death.

What would that change?

Wouldn't we still be here at this trial with the same charges?

I mean, it's probably going to be hard to prove actual intent to kill in this case. So, they are probably going to have to go with either reckless indifference or negligent homicide. So, the defense may intend to argue that it wasn't his intent to kill, it's just that because Floyd had heart issues what would not have killed most, ended up killing him. They could also argue that it wasn't negligent because Floyd only died because of a bad heart and since he did not know about it and had no reason to know about it, he was not negligent. I don't think either argument holds water when you hold your knee on a man's neck for 15 minutes, including while he is not even moving, but that may be what they are thinking of trying to argue.

(I'm not sure what the exact charge is, but even if they charge him higher, he likely could be convicted of a lower included offense like negligent homicide. Not sure if Minnesota law allows that, but LA law does.)

Edit: Here are the charges: https://www.startribune.com/derek-c...ghter-police-minneapolis-minnesota/600030691/

What is second-degree unintentional murder?
For a conviction of second-degree unintentional murder, the state's prosecutors will have to show beyond a reasonable doubt that Chauvin caused Floyd's death while assaulting him.

What is third-degree murder?
Initially, Chauvin faced an additional charge of third-degree murder, but Cahill dismissed that charge and denied a request from the prosecution to reinstate it. The Minnesota Court of Appeals ruled Friday that the judge was wrong to refuse reinstating the third-degree murder charge and sent the case back to Cahill for consideration. After the Minnesota Supreme Court declined to consider an appeal from the defense, Cahill reinstated the charge Thursday. It also carries a presumptive sentence in this case of 10 3⁄4 years to 15 years, according to state sentencing guidelines.

Third-degree murder requires prosecutors to prove that someone caused the death of another "by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life." Legal experts note that the definition of "depraved mind" is murky— as is the legal line between "depraved mind" and the "culpable negligence" standard for manslaughter.

What is second-degree manslaughter?
In order to convict Chauvin of second-degree manslaughter, prosecutors will need to show beyond a reasonable doubt that he was "culpably negligent" and took an "unreasonable risk" with Floyd's life when he restrained him and that his actions put Floyd at risk of death or great harm. Prosecutors do not have to prove that Chauvin's actions intended to cause Floyd's death, only that his actions put Floyd at risk of death or great bodily harm.

So, none of these require proof of "intent." But Second Degree Unintentional Murder requires proof that Cauvin's actions caused Floyd's death. So the argument would be that his death was caused by the heart condition, not the assault.

Third-degree murder requires prosecutors to prove that someone caused the death of another "by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life." So, the argument is that the act wasn't "eminently" dangerous because it would not have been dangerous but for his heart.

 

[bigdaddysaints]

so, if I shoot someone in the chest that has a heart condition, they die because their heart couldn't take the stress that someone with a healthy heart could have easily survived, wouldn't be murder? hishealth condition should play ZERO role.

 

[Optimus Prime]

That 10 minutes makes the poor health/drug arguments weak

What is third-degree murder?
Initially, Chauvin faced an additional charge of third-degree murder, but Cahill dismissed that charge and denied a request from the prosecution to reinstate it. The Minnesota Court of Appeals ruled Friday that the judge was wrong to refuse reinstating the third-degree murder charge and sent the case back to Cahill for consideration. After the Minnesota Supreme Court declined to consider an appeal from the defense, Cahill reinstated the charge Thursday. It also carries a presumptive sentence in this case of 10 3⁄4 years to 15 years, according to state sentencing guidelines.

Third-degree murder requires prosecutors to prove that someone caused the death of another "by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life." Legal experts note that the definition of "depraved mind" is murky— as is the legal line between "depraved mind" and the "culpable negligence" standard for manslaughter.

What was the judges rationale for initially dismissing the 3rd degree charge?

This seems to be a textbook example of "without regard for human life"

 

[tomwaits]

I don't think anyone is saying the current system for accountability isn't crap. They're say a large reason for crap accountability is driven by racism. And you can't expect to scrap the current system without dealing with the problem of racism. They go hand in hand. An overhaul of accountability without dealing with racism still leaves us with a broken accountability system.

If your "reformed" accountability system can be that corrupted by racism, than the reform you are looking at will fail. You absolutely can scrap the current system and implement reforms independently of the racism issue. Not only can it be done, that must be the way it is done if it has any chance of actual reform.