The Electric Vehicle (EV) discussion thread (Merged) (3 Viewers)

HobBeh

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How much carbon for those battries (deliberate typo)?
 

dtc

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Anybody who looks at this thread knows that you were insisting that it remain ten cents. The only point I made is that there is apparently a justification for 3 cents if that is indeed the market value

I know that for a fact because I have asked numerous times what is ethical, logical, or reasonable about forcing the utility company to pay 3.3x the market value....what they can buy electricity from other sources for...and not once did anybody try to answer that nor did anybody say "well not 3.3x, maybe for 5 cents"

There has been a subtle shift in the discussion with nobody wanting to admit they changed their position

Them goalposts....they be a-movin

I even believe I stated that I would like to see state subsidies return on the purchase if this is going to be the case

You're talking about moving goalposts in the same post where you're talking about utility companies "buying power for 3.3c."

Utility companies don't buy power. They make it and provide it. They aren't buying it on some open market and competitively selling it to selective customers.

They're a natural monopoly often propped up by government support and ALWAYS supported by legislation which enables them to avoid actual competition.

Utility companies go so far as to lobby building inspections departments to force every house to be on the grid even where the owner doen'st want or need to be tied. They use their monopoly granted power to create policies which allow them to charge different users different rates. They pollute the air and water in many cases and then fight tooth and nail to prevent competition by way of renewable sources and when that doesn't work they turn to their pet legislators to buy policies that hinder competition.

You're actually arguing that a utility company should not have to pay market price for power and that they shouldn't have to pay retail for power to customers they, themselves, have forced to be connected to the grid in the first place.

Years ago they all supported net metering and then when they found that they could make more by paying nothing for power they changed the rules and set ridiculously low rates for power they get from homeowners and sell at retail.

The problems are not as simple as your argument presumes.
 
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Anybody who looks at this thread knows that you were insisting that it remain ten cents. The only point I made is that there is apparently a justification for 3 cents if that is indeed the market value

I know that for a fact because I have asked numerous times what is ethical, logical, or reasonable about forcing the utility company to pay 3.3x the market value....what they can buy electricity from other sources for...and not once did anybody try to answer that nor did anybody say "well not 3.3x, maybe for 5 cents"

There has been a subtle shift in the discussion with nobody wanting to admit they changed their position

Them goalposts....they be a-movin

I even believe I stated that I would like to see state subsidies return on the purchase if this is going to be the case
Show me where I said it had to be 10 cents. The only thing I've said is it should be consistently priced. You are drawing conclusions based on inaccurate comprehension.

Edit to clarify

If they pay other utilities 3 cents and get 3 cents for what they sell to them and you are now changing it to where the homeowner is a supplier, then you have to sell back at the same rate you do to other suppliers to be fair. So either they are or are not a supplier. Not a supplier when it benefits you and then a retail customer because it benefits you as well.
 
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SaintInBucLand

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Hoovies Garage making one of the more compelling reasons to NOT buy an EV. Keep in mind that Hoovie has always been pro EV.


This is a really good watch, and he reminds me of a younger Jeff Goldblum.
 

dtc

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This is a really good watch, and he reminds me of a younger Jeff Goldblum.
That guy is an idiot. That whole nonsense was a giant strawman.

He's complaining about no warranty on an 8 yr old car he paid 30c on the dollar for.

He's blaming Tesla for not being able to fix it, but he never even called.

He's whining about Tesla wanting him to bring it to them, but that's pretty much the same as any high-end car if you don't live in a big city.

If you have a 10 year old Truck and you blow out a diesel or transmission, it's not under warranty. I just replaced a turbo on one of our big trucks and it was over 5k. It's part of the way cars work and why old ones are cheap.

So, let's follow up.

Someone paid 90 k for that car 9 years ago and he won't call the dealer to see how to deal with it. he whines like a child about how bad it is, but it's only 1k to fix it.

What's the point? Does he think it should be warrantied forever?

Seems like the way the world works when you buy old, high-tech cars. Hell, I've got a 92 SL500 that I had to send to a retired special guy to rebuild the goofy Bosch jetronic fuel injectors that nobody today can work on. That car was 106k in 92 and it's worth maybe 10 today and ever time a convertible lock sensor goes out it's 3k.
 
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Why should the electric company act as a free battery for the customer?
I've been thinking about this one too.

The electric company isn't acting as a battery for anyone. If a homeowner is providing power to them during peak times then it saves on cost of building out additional power generation. So it actually saves the power company money by not having to increase capacity which will not be used during night time hours resulting in less efficiency.

Also, the power company pays nothing to the customer until that customer moves if there is still unused credit. The value of that produced power is locked in an account and losing value since there's no interest gained to compete with inflation. The power company benefits from using the homeowners power which they sell at that time to other homeowners at full rate while saving on production costs making 3x profit on new installations.
 

Dago

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You're talking about moving goalposts in the same post where you're talking about utility companies "buying power for 3.3c."

Utility companies don't buy power. They make it and provide it. They aren't buying it on some open market and competitively selling it to selective customers.

They're a natural monopoly often propped up by government support and ALWAYS supported by legislation which enables them to avoid actual competition.

Utility companies go so far as to lobby building inspections departments to force every house to be on the grid even where the owner doen'st want or need to be tied. They use their monopoly granted power to create policies which allow them to charge different users different rates. They pollute the air and water in many cases and then fight tooth and nail to prevent competition by way of renewable sources and when that doesn't work they turn to their pet legislators to buy policies that hinder competition.

You're actually arguing that a utility company should not have to pay market price for power and that they shouldn't have to pay retail for power to customers they, themselves, have forced to be connected to the grid in the first place.

Years ago they all supported net metering and then when they found that they could make more by paying nothing for power they changed the rules and set ridiculously low rates for power they get from homeowners and sell at retail.

The problems are not as simple as your argument presumes.
Go back and read the original article posted that sparked this discussion. I am going off of what is in it and have qualified my opinion by saying IF it is accurate multiple times

I did not post the article and, as my qualifier would indicate, if what is in it is not true, then my opinion would be different.
 

SaintInBucLand

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That guy is an idiot. That whole nonsense was a giant strawman.
You're actually the idiot, because he has a long history of supporting EVs. God forbid he puts out some information that is helpful to people. Because you clearly did not watch the entire video.
 

dtc

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You're actually the idiot, because he has a long history of supporting EVs. God forbid he puts out some information that is helpful to people. Because you clearly did not watch the entire video.

I assure you I'm not an idiot and I don't give a damn how many videos this guy has posted.

This one is stupid.

I described in great detail why and if you don't get it because he's posted something else in the past I really don't care, but to complain about an EV not being under warranty after 8 years is stupid. To complain that Tesla can't fix it without even having called them is stupid. To complain that he can't drive his broken car to the dealership is beyond stupid because unless you've never had a really broken car, that's the whole issue. Hell, it's why god made tow trucks.

So let's rehash. The guy posted an idiotic, whining waste of time where he made up strawman after strawman and complained about having to replace a part on an old car.

I wonder if you'd agree if he had posted a whining video about his 60,000 mile used tires not being repairable by the manufacturer after having driven over a spike barrier.
 

DaveXA

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I assure you I'm not an idiot and I don't give a damn how many videos this guy has posted.

This one is stupid.

I described in great detail why and if you don't get it because he's posted something else in the past I really don't care, but to complain about an EV not being under warranty after 8 years is stupid. To complain that Tesla can't fix it without even having called them is stupid. To complain that he can't drive his broken car to the dealership is beyond stupid because unless you've never had a really broken car, that's the whole issue. Hell, it's why god made tow trucks.

So let's rehash. The guy posted an idiotic, whining waste of time where he made up strawman after strawman and complained about having to replace a part on an old car.

I wonder if you'd agree if he had posted a whining video about his 60,000 mile used tires not being repairable by the manufacturer after having driven over a spike barrier.
Yeah, the video is interesting in the sense that I hadn't thought about the issues with buying an old EV. But, some of the comparisons and strawman he used were indeed silly.

What I got from it was, don't drop $30k on an 8 year old Tesla. Lol. If the battery bricks out and costs $20k, you're out $50k on an old car.

The issues compared to a ICE car aren't really all that different like you stated. Good points.
 

Dago

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EVs are coming down in price, but they are mostly being purchased by the Benz and Beemer crowd. The average household income for EV buyers is about $140,000. That’s twice the U.S. average.
Furthermore, low- and middle-income Americans are facing significant electric rate increases for grid upgrades to accommodate EVs. Proof of that can be seen by looking, again, at California. Last month, the California Energy Commission estimated the state will need 1.3 million new public EV chargers by 2030. Likely cost to ratepayers: about $13 billion.


so it's pretty much what I said...the people without money are the ones paying for the wealthy to wh don't need the credits to get them. The author isn't anti-electric and neither am I. The problem is that as soon as you mention clean energy a large number of people refuse to listen to any negative. All a politician has to do is mention that a bill is for clean energy and people don't bother to care about any details. I have posted articles showing the recent advances in fusion and the promise that it has. It is the energy source that can break the cycle as well as not be used as a way to take money from the middle and lower class and put it in the pockets of the rich and politicians
 

dtc

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EVs are coming down in price, but they are mostly being purchased by the Benz and Beemer crowd. The average household income for EV buyers is about $140,000. That’s twice the U.S. average.
Furthermore, low- and middle-income Americans are facing significant electric rate increases for grid upgrades to accommodate EVs. Proof of that can be seen by looking, again, at California. Last month, the California Energy Commission estimated the state will need 1.3 million new public EV chargers by 2030. Likely cost to ratepayers: about $13 billion.


so it's pretty much what I said...the people without money are the ones paying for the wealthy to wh don't need the credits to get them. The author isn't anti-electric and neither am I. The problem is that as soon as you mention clean energy a large number of people refuse to listen to any negative. All a politician has to do is mention that a bill is for clean energy and people don't bother to care about any details. I have posted articles showing the recent advances in fusion and the promise that it has. It is the energy source that can break the cycle as well as not be used as a way to take money from the middle and lower class and put it in the pockets of the rich and politicians

Well, I quit caring about any argument against clean energy when I realized what is going to happen if we don't fix the damn mess we've made and stop polluting the planet, killing our waters and burning anything that burns.

And, of course, the folks with money are the first to utilize new technology. Did the poor folks run out in the mid 80s and buy $5,000 computers that could do almost nothing? No. Did that stop us from developing technology so great that your phone is more powerful than what we used to send Apollo into space? No.

Do poor people have 600 horsepower twin turbo porsches with all the newest technology? Nope.

It's never been that way. It will never be that way and it shouldn't surprise any objective thinker that it's not.

But if you want to look at the cost of nothing, look no further than what's going on in Germany and California right now.
 

Dago

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Well, I quit caring about any argument against clean energy when I realized what is going to happen if we don't fix the damn mess we've made and stop polluting the planet, killing our waters and burning anything that burns.

And, of course, the folks with money are the first to utilize new technology. Did the poor folks run out in the mid 80s and buy $5,000 computers that could do almost nothing? No. Did that stop us from developing technology so great that your phone is more powerful than what we used to send Apollo into space? No.

Do poor people have 600 horsepower twin turbo porsches with all the newest technology? Nope.

It's never been that way. It will never be that way and it shouldn't surprise any objective thinker that it's not.

But if you want to look at the cost of nothing, look no further than what's going on in Germany and California right now.
Cmon...don't just knee jerk react. I am not arguing against anything that you morally stand for

Bringing up global warming in an attempt to support your opinion in this is irrelevant since I am not arguing against global warming or the adoption of cleaner energy. It's a red herring.

Your metaphor regarding rich people adopting to new tech first is completely wrong because the middle class and the poor weren't being forced to directly subsidize those items so that rich people who don't need the discounts got one!

Just stop and think. Like I said before, people on both sides shut down to logic and reason when clean energy gets brought up. I know from posting with you that you are principly against robbing the poor to give to the rich (especially when it is legislated) which is certainly an admirable belief to have.

But in this case you don't care. You aren't willing to consider that there are better ways to do this...that elected officials and the wealthy are using a necessary cause to enrich themselves while potentially slowing down or/and making clean energy adoption inefficient
 
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If they are able to develop batteries which charge in seconds, that could be a game changer. Not sure the tech would easily convert to real world from the track though.

 

saintmdterps

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You're actually the idiot, because he has a long history of supporting EVs. God forbid he puts out some information that is helpful to people. Because you clearly did not watch the entire video.
dtc is most definitely not an idiot. Feel free to criticize the post, but no need for name-calling.
 

Rickboy

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Musk announced that Superchargers will be opened to other auto manufacturers by the end of this year. I’ve got a reservation for a Cybertruck and F150 Lightning. I’m probably going to drop the CT reservation if I can get my F150 charged at any Supercharger. Those things are all over the place.

 

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