The first defensive drive... really wasn't as bad as it looked (1 Viewer)

[Saint Droopy]

OK... yes giving up a 14-play drive that ended in a TD is bad, but when I was watching the game live I didn't really think it was that bad. And now that I've watched the drive again (on the nfl.com Preseason Live) I feel better about that drive.

Rob Ryan couldn't have played that drive any more "vanilla". He even started the game in a Nickel (4 down linemen) and played zone pretty much that entire drive.

I'm not saying that Ryan "let" KC go down the field, but as I mentioned in another post... I would feel alot worse about this if Ryan had actually schemed for this game. First I'll give you a play-by-play description of how KC went down the field, then I'll give you a few of my observations:

1st and 10 from their 20 (Play 1):

Saints rush 4 and drop into a zone. KC runs a screen play and Charles catches the ball 5 yards behind the LOS, and gains 6 yards.

2nd and 4 at their 26 (Play 2):

Saints again in the 4 man line. They show blitz, and at the snap they run-blitz, but KC runs the play-action boot. Cam Jordan plays his responsibility and stays home on the backside (and forces the throw), but Fasano is wide open for the pass. He catches it 3 yards past the line of scrimmage and gains a total of 11.

1st and 10 at their 37 (Play 3):

Saints are now in their 3-4 look, and KC are in a shotgun with 1 RB. At the snap the LBs take a step back which signifies they were in a zone, but Smith hands it off to Charles for a gain of 2.

2nd and 8 at their 40 (Play 4):

Saints are back in their 3-4 look, and at the snap the LBs and secondary drops into their zones (rushing 3). Smith throws a swing pass to Charles who catches it 4 yards behind the line of scrimmage, and races past Will Smith for a gain of 8, and gets the 1st down.

1st and 10 at their 48 (Play 5):

Saints back in the 3-4 look, and at the snap the back 8 drops into a zone. Hicks whips the rookie at RT and forces Smith out of the pocket to his right. Also Cam Jordan is getting a push on the other side. Hawthorne and Greer chases Smith out of bounds for a loss of 1.

2nd and 11 at their 47 (Play 6): Sorry they were replaying the last play and resumed action after the play started. I couldn't get the pre-snap alignment but here's the shot:

It looks as though they were playing a 4-3 because Lofton, Hawthorne and Herring are in on the play. KC runs the stretch to the right and gains 4.

3rd and 7 from Saints 49 (Play 7):

Saints come out in a Nickel with 4 linemen and they show blitz and man across the board. They only rush 4, and Smith hits the TE, who gets inside of Harp on a slant. He caught the ball 4 yards from the line of scrimmage and gained 9 and got the 1st down.

1st and 10 from the Saints 40 (Play 8):

Saints in a 3-4 and drops 8 into a zone (rushed 3) at the snap. Smith swings it out to his TE on the right side, and he caught the ball 2 yards behind the line of scrimmage. He gained 8 on the play after a missed tackle by Greer.

2nd and 2 at the Saints 32 (Play 9):

Saints in their 3-4 and brings Harp in the box after Bowe comes in motion. The play is an iso run to Charles who gains 2, and gets the first by half a yard.

1st down and 10 at the Saints 30 (Play 10):

Saints in an alignment with 3 linemen, and 3 safeties. At the snap they rush 4 (3 linemen and Harp) and drop 7 into zones, and Smith hits McCluster 7 yards past the line of scrimmage, and he gains 12 on the play.

1st and 10 at the Saints 18 Play 11):

KC runs no-huddle and quick-snaps and catch the Saints off-guard. The Saints had the same personnel on the field, and KC runs the ball with Charles off-tackle to the left. Keenan Lewis knocks him out of bounds after a gain of 4.

2nd and 6 at the Saints 14 (Play 12):

Saints come out with the same personnel (3 safeties), and they rush 3 while dropping 8 into coverage. Interesting thing about this play is Will Smith was one of the 3 down linemen. Alex Smith drops back to pass and Tyrunn Walker (who was a beast tonight) almost gets him, and forces him to scramble to the right. Will Smith forces him to throw it away before he ran out of bounds.

3rd and 6 from the Saints 14 (Play 13):

Saints with the 3 safety look again, and they rush 3 and drop 8 on 3rd down. Cam Jordan and Will Smith rushing from the ends forces Alex Smith to step up, and he hit Charles circling out of the backfield. He caught the pass 4 yards past the line of scrimmage, and wa sable to get the ball inside the 5 after the catch.

The next play they punched it in for the TD... no need to show you that one, but let's go back and analyze what went on in that drive.

1) Of those 14 plays we played "man coverage" 1 time... on that 3rd down play that they converted on the slant.

2) You may have noticed I bolded the text of the balls that were caught, and how many yards past the line of scrimmage they were caught. KC dinked and dunked that entire drive. Maybe it was a result of the soft coverage... or maybe it was a result of GOOD coverage on the back-end, but we didn't give up any "big" plays.

3) Run defense was on point tonight. Guys were flowing to the ball and limiting KC on their runs.

4) Notice how far back in coverage that our CBs were playing. Do you think we signed a big CB Keenan Lewis to play that far off in coverage? We might as well have kept Spags! Those guys will be physical man corners once the "bullets start flying"... they may drop in zones but not for an entire drive like this.

5) I included the pre-snap pics to give you guys some visual evidence that this will NOT be the same defense you will see during the regular season.

6) We're missing 3 guys on defense that will make a difference... Junior, Vilma and Tez will be a part of this, and don't forget about P-Rob. We haven't seen this kid cover with the help of a pass rush, which it seems we may finally get.

7) Take a look at play #7. Harp gets beat on the slant, but during the season I don't think we'll see Harp covering that... I expect Malcolm Jenkins to be there. Who by the way... you may not see in ANY of these pics because he's playing 20-something yards back.

The question will be asked... "well why did the 2nd unit play so much better?"

I honestly have no answer for that. It could be the fact that KC's backup offense just sucks. I know our D-Linemen DOMINATED the game once the 2s and 3s got into the game, and Ryan started using his OLBs to rush more instead of dropping into coverage as the game went on. he didn't necessarily blitz, but he allowed his edge rushers to do what they do.

I made this post to just try to put some folks at ease about our first team defense. I'm not saying they'll transform into the Steele Curtain once the season starts, but I will say that they won't be so bland and simple in this scheme as they were early on.

Remember... this scheme is new, and they're truly not done implementing the entire system. We'll get a good test in week 3 when we play Houston. I don't expect us to "empty the playbook", but I don't expect us to be so "vanilla" either. Should be a good test then, but we won tonight, and the youngins looked great.

OK I'm tired... holla!

 

[Boudro]

I don't have time to read that whole post right now because I'm at work but you get a thumbs up for being thorough.

 

[birdog]

That's just it.....this whole drive makes the Saints D on par with last year. We can sugarcoat it as much as we want it, but they had like a 14 play drive, and moved the ball at will. Didn't the exact thing happened last year too? They only took what we gave them....well heck!.....We gave them everything....they scored a TD, and we're left with the consolation that in the regular season it will be different.

No, it won't be any different, if our guys can't make plays to stop the opponents. If our D was vanilla, so was their offense. It bugs me that the players don't really mind it when another team marches all over them. B/c THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THIS WAS.....A MARCH. AND WE LET THEM OFF THE HOOK!

They say a D is like a chain.....it is as strong as its weakest link. And this Saints D had a few weak links last night. That has to change, if they want to take another step. Otherwise we're back exactly in the same place we were last year.

 

[BreesusSaves]

So what you're saying is you can throw the ball behind the line of scrimmage against the Saints and still get first downs because of poor tackling, poor angles, or just flat out being faster than the defenders. Just. Like. Last. Season.

 

[SuperRemo]

Thanks for the pics, very helpful.

While I agree we went vanilla, there are some very problematic things i saw that aren't easily correctable.

We have poor LBs in space. Whether that's Smith on the OLB in the flat or the ILBs covering the middle on screens or TE passes.

This is a talent issue.

It also looks weird how far off the ball the OLBs are lined up on the 3-4. Look at the 3rd, 4th and 5th picture. The OLBs almost seem like they're no threat to the QB and with their slowness you can't line them up this far off. That defeats the purpose of the 3-4 which thrives on the confusion created by not knowing which of the 4 lbs are going to blitz. This is more easily correctable.

Hopefully Gallete and Wilson are better at this.

 

[Blessedog]

Excellent post.

You guys are freaking out for no reason. 3 out of 4 starting Linebackers were out. 2 of our best pass rushers in Galette and Wilson plus the smartest guy on the field in Vilma. I really only caught the 4th quarter but if they really did dink and dunk us that means the coverage on the back end was probably solid. The run defense was solid as well.

I, for one, found the defensive stat line to be impressive and I'm optimistic about the D.

 

[Surviving Saint]

We just started a 3-4 defense with new players and players from last year that are used to playing in a 4-3 and people expect the defense to look unstoppable? It's gonna take some time. They all have to be on the same page and there is no way that will happen after only one week of practice.

 

[literature]

Long story short:

1. Their plan on that drive was to use short passes that attack linebackers. We were missing 3 out of 4 starting linebackers.

2. Ryan's scheme is based on multiple looks and pressures. He used almost none of them.

Short story even shorter:

We learned almost nothing from that drive, so panicers please check your neurosis. Is the defense still terrible? Maybe! Is it awesome? Maybe!

 

[Saint Droopy]

LOL @ some of you. You guys are missing the point of the post.

OF COURSE its just like last year, because that's the same defense we played last year. We played a ton of zone last year, and we played pretty much ALL zone in that 1st drive.

The difference is we didn't give up the 30 yard bomb. Really only missed 1 tackle in that drive, and that was Greer going too low on the fullback on the swing pass. Other than that the tackling was solid (I'm speaking on the 1st drive here).

My point (again) o fthe post was we won't be playing that crappy zone stuff. Ryan is not a zone guy. He drafted Mo Claiborne last year and brought Brandon Carr to Dallas because he's a press man coach. He signed Kee-Lew, and kept Greer and P-Rob so that they can play press man here.

I looked at more of the game as the 2s came in, and they played more press man, and blitzed a lil more. He even called some of those "psycho" alignments where he had NOBODY with their hand on the ground.

I like our defense. I may be alone on this and that's fine, but I'm not gonna take 1 drive of the 1st preseason and totally give up on them and say that we're the same defense form last year.

That 1st drive was NOTHING like the defense (the scheme and players in it) that we'll see in the regular season.

 

[BreesusSaves]

Long story short:

1. Their plan on that drive was to use short passes that attack linebackers. We were missing 3 out of 4 starting linebackers.

2. Ryan's scheme is based on multiple looks and pressures. He gave them none of them that drive.

Short story even shorter:

We learned almost nothing from that drive, so panicers please check your neurosis.

So because the Saints run a vanilla scheme, it is ok to jettison things like taking correct angles and not missing tackles? This sounds freakishly like last season. "Don't worry, it is vanilla. It is pre-season. We'll be fine." I know this because I was one of the people last year saying "don't worry it is just pre-season." That worked out super.

 

[birdog]

Excellent post.

You guys are freaking out for no reason. 3 out of 4 starting Linebackers were out. 2 of our best pass rushers in Galette and Wilson plus the smartest guy on the field in Vilma. I really only caught the 4th quarter but if they really did dink and dunk us that means the coverage on the back end was probably solid. The run defense was solid as well.

I, for one, found the defensive stat line to be impressive and I'm optimistic about the D.

Actually having our starting LBs out was a positive things....We had a great chance to see what would happen if these players end up injured. B/c it could happen every week. So we took a closer look at our backups. Not too reassuring, I must say.

There is a different mentality between the D and the offense. When Drew Brees takes the field, he will do his utmost under the circumstances to maximize his chance, and score. We have seen this all the time.

For some reason the D is unable to gear themselves up to do likewise. They come out like zombies....I'm talking last year primarily, and the first drive. Why can't the D come out smoking for a change.....just like Drew Brees and the Saints offense comes out every time? They can't cope with their opponents for they have a few deadbeats on the defensive side. Either these players start producing, or they should be replaced.

 

[Saint Droopy]

That's just it.....this whole drive makes the Saints D on par with last year. We can sugarcoat it as much as we want it, but they had like a 14 play drive, and moved the ball at will. Didn't the exact thing happened last year too? They only took what we gave them....well heck!.....We gave them everything....they scored a TD, and we're left with the consolation that in the regular season it will be different.

No, it won't be any different, if our guys can't make plays to stop the opponents. If our D was vanilla, so was their offense. It bugs me that the players don't really mind it when another team marches all over them. B/c THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THIS WAS.....A MARCH. AND WE LET THEM OFF THE HOOK!

They say a D is like a chain.....it is as strong as its weakest link. And this Saints D had a few weak links last night. That has to change, if they want to take another step. Otherwise we're back exactly in the same place we were last year.

LOL @ the Denny Green reference. You add Vilma, Tez and Junya and the speed on defense, and remove Hawthorne, Richardson and Will Smith, and you'll see a significant difference in speed. And remember... we played nothing but zone in that 1st drive... which is what we played all last year. I HIGHLY doubt you will see THAT much zone in one drive. Not from a Ryan. They're not wired that way.

But I know Payton probably told Ryan to chill on the blitzes, because remember the last time one renegade defensive coordinator blitzed the hell out of San Fran in a preseason game? Well that dude gave Harbaugh all of our blitzes on a silver platter, and SF was ready for them when we played them in the playoffs.

 

[literature]

So because the Saints run a vanilla scheme, it is ok to jettison things like taking correct angles and not missing tackles? This sounds freakishly like last season. "Don't worry, it is vanilla. It is pre-season. We'll be fine." I know this because I was one of the people last year saying "don't worry it is just pre-season." That worked out super.

There was one missed tackle on that drive and it was CB on FB in space which is difficult. Tackling and angles looked much better than last year.

Scheme was not adjusted to what the KC offense was doing on that drive, of course.

 

[birdog]

LOL @ the Denny Green reference. You add Vilma, Tez and Junya and the speed on defense, and remove Hawthorne, Richardson and Will Smith, and you'll see a significant difference in speed. And remember... we played nothing but zone in that 1st drive... which is what we played all last year. I HIGHLY doubt you will see THAT much zone in one drive. Not from a Ryan. They're not wired that way.

But I know Payton probably told Ryan to chill on the blitzes, because remember the last time one renegade defensive coordinator blitzed the hell out of San Fran in a preseason game? Well that dude gave Harbaugh all of our blitzes on a silver platter, and SF was ready for them when we played them in the playoffs.

Yep....the Chefs are, who we thought they were...

 

[Saint Droopy]

Thanks for the pics, very helpful.

While I agree we went vanilla, there are some very problematic things i saw that aren't easily correctable.

We have poor LBs in space. Whether that's Smith on the OLB in the flat or the ILBs covering the middle on screens or TE passes.

This is a talent issue.

It also looks weird how far off the ball the OLBs are lined up on the 3-4. Look at the 3rd, 4th and 5th picture. The OLBs almost seem like they're no threat to the QB and with their slowness you can't line them up this far off. That defeats the purpose of the 3-4 which thrives on the confusion created by not knowing which of the 4 lbs are going to blitz. This is more easily correctable.

Hopefully Gallete and Wilson are better at this.

Again.. this isn't the same defense you'll see in the regular season. You may see these alignments in 3rd and "forever" situations, but don't put any stock into the pics you see above. Our corners are gonna bump receivers. We're going to at least SHOW blitz even if they don't all come. He couldn't have played it any more "vanilla" if he tried. You don't show too much in drive 1 in week 1 of the preseason.