The "not bashing Ingram, but just a critique" thread (1 Viewer)

[DaveXA]

I thought Ingram was bumming it until Hightower came in and started producing positive yards in chunks. I have seen that out of Ingram more than once.

FWIW, Hightower only had 5 runs for 39 yards and a long of 13. While it's a 7.8 ypc average, it's skewed by such a small sample size. Ingram had 16 carries for 62, and he also caught 4 passes for 20 yards and a TD. If Hightower had 10-15 carries, it might make for a better comparison. It's also possible he's on a pitch count. So it's tough to compare the 2.

Ingram's vision and decision making, plus his lack of burst leaves a lot to be desired, but you have to credit Ingram for the other things he does well, grinding short runs, picking up blitzes and catching passes. And he's always protected the ball well, in spite of the recent late fumble. These attributes are a big part of why he has a job.

Payton isn't gonna give it to anyone else until he has full confidence that Drew is well protected by the RB he puts in.

 

[ACCOUNTNOLONGERINUSE]

FWIW, Hightower only had 5 runs for 39 yards and a long of 13. While it's a 7.8 ypc average, it's skewed by such a small sample size. Ingram had 16 carries for 62, and he also caught 4 passes for 20 yards and a TD. If Hightower had 10-15 carries, it might make for a better comparison. It's also possible he's on a pitch count. So it's tough to compare the 2.

Ingram's vision and decision making, plus his lack of burst leaves a lot to be desired, but you have to credit Ingram for the other things he does well, grinding short runs, picking up blitzes and catching passes. And he's always protected the ball well, in spite of the recent late fumble. These attributes are a big part of why he has a job.

Payton isn't gonna give it to anyone else until he has full confidence that Drew is well protected by the RB he puts in.

Nothing wrong with what you're saying here. I disagree a bit with your comments about Ingram's vision which I think is just fine. I think he's lacking in the explosiveness department which wasn't a secret when he was coming out of college. He's really a 2nd round draft pick that went a little high. Payton reached because that was the guy he wanted.

Payton also wanted Jeremy Hill who i think would have been a great replacement for Ivory and he would have complemented Ingram quite well.

 

[ACCOUNTNOLONGERINUSE]

Interesting comments from one of my all-tme favorites Dalton Hilliard, he says rather than use Ingram as much as we have in the power game we need to utilize him more in the finesse game (more draws and screens) and pass it to him even more--that way defenses look at him a bit differently. Might not be a bad idea...

 

[DaveXA]

Nothing wrong with what you're saying here. I disagree a bit with your comments about Ingram's vision which I think is just fine. I think he's lacking in the explosiveness department which wasn't a secret when he was coming out of college. He's really a 2nd round draft pick that went a little high. Payton reached because that was the guy he wanted.

Payton also wanted Jeremy Hill who i think would have been a great replacement for Ivory and he would have complemented Ingram quite well.

I'm not sure if it's vision or how he's coached, but there were several plays in the KC where you can see a lane clearly opening up, but he didn't cut towards it. I think he wants to go where his blockers are rather than going where the lane is. I'm not sure if that's a vision problem or coaching problem, but it's clear he's missing some chances to bounce into those lanes for extra yardage. Maybe it's something else entirely, but it's hard to judge when you don't know what he's being told to do.

 

[oldJC.SAINTS]

Mark not that special while Deuce was special. Ok. So let's compare. Ingram has a longer rush. He is on pace for more TDs. He is .1 less average per carry. So what makes Deuce so special (with a better OLine) than Ingram who is not so special?


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I'm not bashing Mark here. I think Deuce was more special cause more explosive and as complete as Ingram. Deuce has had 39 runs of 20+ yds and 10 runs of 40+ yds, also 11 rec of 20+ yds. Seems to me Deuce could take it the distance on any given carry, not Mark. Deuce was sub 4.4 while Mark is a 4.6 back... that's all I am saying.

Maybe he had a better O-Line (maybe) but he did not have a better QB and that can help RB also (ask Todd Gurley).

 

[FatCitySaint]

I'm not sure if it's vision or how he's coached, but there were several plays in the KC where you can see a lane clearly opening up, but he didn't cut towards it. I think he wants to go where his blockers are rather than going where the lane is. I'm not sure if that's a vision problem or coaching problem, but it's clear he's missing some chances to bounce into those lanes for extra yardage. Maybe it's something else entirely, but it's hard to judge when you don't know what he's being told to do.

Pretty easy to see stuff from your nice tv angle, try that on the field.

 

[Meachemdat]

I'm not bashing Mark here. I think Deuce was more special cause more explosive and as complete as Ingram. Deuce has had 39 runs of 20+ yds and 10 runs of 40+ yds, also 11 rec of 20+ yds. Seems to me Deuce could take it the distance on any given carry, not Mark. Deuce was sub 4.4 while Mark is a 4.6 back... that's all I am saying.

Maybe he had a better O-Line (maybe) but he did not have a better QB and that can help RB also (ask Todd Gurley).

We are using Mark wrong. He excels in the passing game so why on earth would you run him, then run an empty back set?

I love how Payton runs the offense and how much success he's had in his career here, but the way we use Ingram is frustrating.

Always keep him in on 3rd and short. Either him or Khun should always be in on 3rd and short.

Ingram is your back when you need to pick up a yard. Your guy that will get the tough yards. He most definitely is not the home run type of player that's gonna take a hand-off and run it 30 yards to the house.

What has happened with sticking with the hot hand? We used to do this all the time. Everyone is going to have tough days where it's just not working, don't force it.

We've had games where PT just wasn't having success or Bush wasn't having success and we'd go with the hot hand. We don't really do that anymore.

 

[GeauxSaintz86]

so......Lasco?

 

[DaveXA]

Pretty easy to see stuff from your nice tv angle, try that on the field.

I actually have. It's not that complicated. Some people have better vision than others. Some people have tendencies that are difficult to break. It's just hard to tell what he's thinking, but the rushing lanes can be seen and/or anticipated as much from ground level as from any other angle. I know from first hand experience.

It could also be a decision making issue as well. Most running plays the running back has to make decisions on where and when to make cuts, and which gap to hit. He might be having issues making that decision. You cannot be tentative when making those decisions.

I like Ingram, always have, and he does really well in a lot of areas, but his lack of burst and suspect vision/decision making seems to be preventing him from making big plays. It's not necessarily new though.

He's good enough to keep a job and do fairly well, but he's not gonna be a guy that breaks long runs.

 

[DaveXA]

so......Lasco?

I don't know if I trust him enough yet to be a reliable pass protector. If he can do that well, I suspect Payton will play him more. I'm not sure how good at it he is. Time will tell I guess.

 

[saintszks]

Ingram is a really good back. He fights off tackles and consistently picks up yards when there are none to pick up. He is also one of the best receiving backs as well. He's tremendous in the 10-20 yard burst but cannot break the long runs. That also comes from the fact that our offense will never be a run team. Many times we play from behind and constantly switch players which limits his opportunity to showcase that home run ability. He is also a tremendous pass blocker and rarely misses assignments. We could do a lot worse.

 

[TurboWhoDat]

ingram is kind of the perfect example of how our fans will defend mediocrity all day. we're still waiting on him to have that breakout season. dude is as average as they come. he needs wide open holes to make plays and half the time when he gets them he's slowed down by an arm tackle to the legs. he registered a lot of yards after contact because he does tend to fall forward on those arm tackles, but an actual good running back would break free for plays in those scenarios. we got a taste of that with pierre thomas who had excellent balance and could legitimately make plays after contact. ingram is just average. we should desire more than average.

 

[sean5340]

As a fan of the game, for me Ingram doesn't pass the eye test. I see the holes he misses and the edge he can't get to. I never get excited to see the ball handed to him. He's very capable at pass protection and recieving but only mediocre at running the ball.

 

[FatCitySaint]

I actually have. It's not that complicated. Some people have better vision than others. Some people have tendencies that are difficult to break. It's just hard to tell what he's thinking, but the rushing lanes can be seen and/or anticipated as much from ground level as from any other angle. I know from first hand experience.

It could also be a decision making issue as well. Most running plays the running back has to make decisions on where and when to make cuts, and which gap to hit. He might be having issues making that decision. You cannot be tentative when making those decisions.

I like Ingram, always have, and he does really well in a lot of areas, but his lack of burst and suspect vision/decision making seems to be preventing him from making big plays. It's not necessarily new though.

He's good enough to keep a job and do fairly well, but he's not gonna be a guy that breaks long runs.

You played RB in the NFL? I hope you are not comparing playing RB in HS or some community college to the NFL level?