The One-Dimensional Offense of the New Orleans Saints (1 Viewer)

[Heathen Saint]

Games thus far (2016):

Vs. the Raiders, 22 attempts-- 88 total yards
Vs. the Giants, 13 attempts--41 total yards


Rush offense:


25th in 2013
13th in 2014
24th in 2015
28th in 2016 (in progress)

As you can see, it's been an issue for a while now.

Teams will continue to know we can only rely on our air game. We have done a surprisingly decent job thus far of protecting Brees, but we have a very good running back (Ingram) who won't ever look like a productive back because our line can't block for him. It's 1-3 yards and a cloud of dust every time we run the ball, and not in a good way. Mark is running for his life on every run play. It's shameful that our line isn't one of the top in the NFL considering we have one of if not the BEST offense the NFL has seen since Brees arrived...We've had some gems in the dirt (Jahri, Armstead) but we thought we could wing it in the offseason with our line-- now we've got cake on our face with a brutal NFL schedule coming up after the bye.

Will we address the run blocking in the offseason? Or will we once again finish top of the NFL in passing, close to last in rushing?

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

The problem with this post is you think Ingram is a very good running back. I just want to know how sway?

HOW

 

[TheMike62987]

Hey look, another thread bringing up the same tired topics.

 

[superchuck500]

Games thus far (2016):

Vs. the Raiders, 22 attempts-- 88 total yards
Vs. the Giants, 13 attempts--41 total yards


Rush offense:


25th in 2013
13th in 2014
24th in 2015
28th in 2016 (in progress)

As you can see, it's been an issue for a while now.

Teams will continue to know we can only rely on our air game. We have done a surprisingly decent job thus far of protecting Brees, but we have a very good running back (Ingram) who won't ever look like a productive back because our line can't block for him. It's 1-3 yards and a cloud of dust every time we run the ball, and not in a good way. Mark is running for his life on every run play. It's shameful that our line isn't one of the top in the NFL considering we have one of if not the BEST offense the NFL has seen since Brees arrived...We've had some gems in the dirt (Jahri, Armstead) but we thought we could wing it in the offseason with our line-- now we've got cake on our face with a brutal NFL schedule coming up after the bye.

Will we address the run blocking in the offseason? Or will we once again finish top of the NFL in passing, close to last in rushing?

I don't think the explanation is squarely on the run blocking. And with an average just under 4 ypc, it isn't 1-3 yards in a cloud of dust.

Yes, the run blocking could be better but there remains a commitment problem with the two guys calling the plays. And frequently, they call the run on obvious run situations from obvious run sets. It makes easier what is already an easy job calling the defense.

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

Hey look, another thread bringing up the same tired topics.

and making the same tired assumptions.

 

[blackadder]

Lip service will be paid to "balance" and there are sporadic efforts to address or emphasize but for whatever reason something in the chemistry of the scheme/talent/coaching doesn't add up to sustained organic success running the ball.

The fundamental weakness is most evident in short yardage situations.

Things were better in the Nicks/Evans days but we still needed to set up with the pass and got most bigger runs later in the game sitting on a big lead.

This has never been an offense where running the ball gives a spark or you wear your opponent down and break a big game changing run like the Raiders did to us a couple weeks ago. You have to stick with it but for us it's just filler and it's forgotten too easily. As the other poster noted, always in part a commitment problem.

11 years in, it is what it is.

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

Lip service will be paid to "balance" and there are sporadic efforts to address or emphasize but for whatever reason something in the chemistry of the scheme/talent/coaching doesn't add up to organic success running the ball.

The fundamental weakness is most evident in short yardage situations.

This were better in the Nicks/Evans days but we still needed to set up with the pass and got most bigger runs later in the game sitting on a big lead.

This has never been an offense where running the ball gives a spark or you wear your opponent down and break a big game changing run like the Raiders did. You have to stick with it but for us it's just filler and it's forgotten too easily.

Sean Payton will never change...he needs good RB's that can take advantage of the opportunities when they are given.

Deuce/Reggie accounted for nearly 2500 yds from Scrimmage their first year together...both being former 1st round picks.

Ingrams 1st year he had Jahri & Nicks.....and still averaged less than 4ypc.


Nah....the offense doesn't lend itself to being a dominant run offense.....so it needs a dominant RB.



Ingram is not one. Ivory was a dominant runner but wasn't a complete back (passing game) thus the reason for him being shipped. A David Johnson type RB makes this offense hum. An Ivory with Hands makes this offense run........Ingram is an average all around back...he can do everything.....but he's merely average at it....including staying healthy.

Although I'd say his one gleaming attribute......the guy does not put the ball on the ground.

 

[Heathen Saint]

Hey look, another thread bringing up the same tired topics.

And they'll continue to be "tired" until the issues are resolved.

 

[Saint_Ward]

Isn't that the point of having an elite QB? The threat is they can air it out and make plays all over the field.

We can't abandon the run, but unless we're obliterating a team or up by a lot, I wouldn't expect 170 yard rushing games out of this squad.

Drew threw for 263, 66% completion, 44 attempts (historically we average in the 40's), 1TD, no picks, and a QB rating around 89. Not what we're used to, but that's good QB play. Just not a 423 yard, 4 TD, 67% completion, 110 QB rating day.

Even on a bad day, he's good.

 

[blackadder]

Sean Payton will never change...he needs good RB's that can take advantage of the opportunities when they are given.

Deuce/Reggie accounted for nearly 2500 yds from Scrimmage their first year together...both being former 1st round picks.

Ingrams 1st year he had Jahri & Nicks.....and still averaged less than 4ypc.


Nah....the offense doesn't lend itself to being a dominant run offense.....so it needs a dominant RB.



Ingram is not one. Ivory was a dominant runner but wasn't a complete back (passing game) thus the reason for him being shipped. A David Johnson type RB makes this offense hum. An Ivory with Hands makes this offense run........Ingram is an average all around back...he can do everything.....but he's merely average at it....including staying healthy.

There's a lot more to it than having an elite RB who might make the OL look better.

There's also the commitment thing and somehow some ooomph lacking up front in the ground game. You don't need to have Earl Campbell to not struggle to pick up less than 3 yards on the ground, which is why when we do try Payton almost always goes with the FB.

Think back over the last 5 years or so how many times we have been stuffed or just barely pick up the 1st in short yardage. This is what is in the mind of the coach who calls a TE reverse to pick up short yardage.

To me this has always been a fundamental problem that is going to hurt you at some point when the stakes are high and Payton does speak to it at times and try things like changing to zone blocking or getting a new OL coach but the results don't seem to materialize on the ground and rather than go to the mat over it we just default to putting the ball in Brees' hands.

 

[blackadder]

Isn't that the point of having an elite QB? The threat is they can air it out and make plays all over the field.

We can't abandon the run, but unless we're obliterating a team or up by a lot, I wouldn't expect 170 yard rushing games out of this squad.

Drew threw for 263, 66% completion, 44 attempts (historically we average in the 40's), 1TD, no picks, and a QB rating around 89. Not what we're used to, but that's good QB play. Just not a 423 yard, 4 TD, 67% completion, 110 QB rating day.

Even on a bad day, he's good.

I would like to see W/L records for teams who average over 40 passing attempts, whether over years or even for stretches.

I bet it is underwhelming.

 

[Heathen Saint]

The problem with this post is you think Ingram is a very good running back. I just want to know how sway?

HOW

Rushing offense rank:

2009--6th
2010--28th
2011--6th (Ingram's rookie year)
2012--25th

And then it was just downhill from there.

People can blame it all on Ingram, or they can realize that we had a solid group from before/after the super bowl, but it fell straight off a cliff after that. If you think Ingram is a bad running back, I don't know what to tell you. Maybe it will take another good running back looking like a dud behind a stagnant line for folks to realize it isn't squarely on the RB.

 

[crawfish2010]

The problem with this post is you think Ingram is a very good running back. I just want to know how sway?

HOW

Ingram is definitely an average RB, nothing special. You can get his production from a Free Agent. I understand why the Saints drafted him but Belichek definitely swindled the Saints in that trade. However, I don't think he's the problem. I think the problem is the offensive line. People claim that Unger is a great center but the running game has actually digressed since the Graham trade.

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

There's a lot more to it than having an elite RB who might make the OL look better.

There's also the commitment thing and somehow some ooomph lacking up front in the ground game. You don't need to have Earl Campbell to not struggle to pick up less than 3 yards on the ground, which is why when we do try Payton almost always goes with the FB.

Think back over the last 5 years or so how many times we have been stuffed or just barely pick up the 1st in short yardage. This is what is in the mind of the coach who calls a TE reverse to pick up short yardage.

To me this has always been a fundamental problem that is going to hurt you at some point when the stakes are high and Payton does speak to it at times and try things like changing to zone blocking or getting a new OL coach but the results don't seem to materialize on the ground and rather than go to the mat over it we just default to putting the ball in Brees' hands.

Yeah I get you, what I'm saying is you can't force a coach to change how he calls game. That's what won us a SB.

Double edged sword...but if you are going to pass 60% of the time and Run 40% of the time you need an RB who if he only gets 13 carries in a game he goes for 70 yds instead of 45 because when teams know we are going to run the ball you need someone who can make a free defender miss.

Ingram isn't as good as Pierre as making the 1st guy miss. They both ran behind the same lines and Pierre average over 5ypc twice in a SP offense. Ingram has never been over 5ypc.

It's possible.....but the back has to be an above average runner.

Pierre Thomas, RB at NFL.com

Mark Ingram, RB for the New Orleans Saints at NFL.com

Chris Ivory, RB for the Jacksonville Jaguars at NFL.com

Only back in those links who didn't average 5ypc while with the saints is Ingram....because he isn't as good a runner as Ivory/Pierre.


Its really simple...and has nothing to do with the play calling......its having someone that can take advantage of the opportunities and make themost of them.

But I digress........you guys will argue about SP all day....


I just want to know HOW becoming a running offense when the backs cant take advantage helps.

HOW

 

[Heathen Saint]

Isn't that the point of having an elite QB? The threat is they can air it out and make plays all over the field.

We can't abandon the run, but unless we're obliterating a team or up by a lot, I wouldn't expect 170 yard rushing games out of this squad.

Drew threw for 263, 66% completion, 44 attempts (historically we average in the 40's), 1TD, no picks, and a QB rating around 89. Not what we're used to, but that's good QB play. Just not a 423 yard, 4 TD, 67% completion, 110 QB rating day.

Even on a bad day, he's good.

The year we went to the Super Bowl in 09..we ranked 6th in rushing...the year we almost went back to the super bowl in 2011, we ranked 6th in rushing the football. We weren't completely balanced on offense, at least in my opinion, but we could definitely run the ball when we needed to. Compare that to since 2012, where we've averaged in the 20's. I think that has a lot to do with the play of the offensive line.

Drew can always make plays..but we can't expect to win solely on passing the ball with a nonexistent ground game