The problem is not Winston (1 Viewer)

[BarBar]

I wasn't on here hammering Drew, what I am saying is that the great ones throw ints. With that being said our problem is that we have yet to have a full week of practice with our skilled players all there. I'm sure Winston will not practice much this week and its going to show on Sunday. The WR and QB and playcalling is all on different pages. I'm tired of hearing that is what Winston does, he threw for a lot of yards and TDs while in Tampa, can we get him back to that. I will take some ints for a 500 yard days with multiple tds. We are not playing up to what is capable and its not all Winston. Hell he has thrown 6ints while with the Saints and 5 of them are in 2 games. So I'm not worried about the ints, I'm worried about the offense sucking and that is not on him. I would go back to Thanksgiving 4 years ago and the commentator said it was impossible to defend Kamara when he runs a choice route up the middle were he reads the LB, haven't seen that play ran since that game. We use to run jet sweep and had a ton of plays built off that and we don't do that any more, we killed teams with rubs and crossing plays and don't do that any more. Hill is a waste right now not being in the game. We talk about Madden stacked teams and we have one and are not using it. With Thomas, Olave, Landry, Kamara, and Hill (or Johnson) there is no reason we cant move the ball up and down the field. That is the best skilled group I have ever seen in New Orleans. Take them and put them in a system that fits them and run it. The problem with Pete is that he is trying to run what Payton did, get away from it and open up the playbook.

I agree with some of this.

Old Jamies had a lot of production to go along with the mistakes. Honestly the mistakes are expected. What I didnt expect is that we are getting none of the positives that used to go along with Winston at QB. Namely, lots of yards. We are having SOOO much trouble moving the ball. Every first down seems like a huge victory.

I am not giving him a pass because in every situation he has to make the best decision available and I am not sure he is doing that. But he is extremely capable of moving the ball and he can no longer do that even though his throws look fine. THAT is down to coaching, IMO. I can understand how extreme pain affects everything, even timing and decision making but that is also not a real excuse. They have got to get it together and show some ability to move down the field this week.

 

[BayouSAINTJoe]

I figure this is about as good as a place for this as any...so I'm bored this afternoon watching a reply of the game...and below is what I've been screaming about w/ opening the formations up...this is a 3rd down pre-snap, can you tell where the rush is coming from?



You're allowing DBs to show blitz and pickup their man...move Johnson and Landry out...force the DB to show cover, that'll clear up the clutter and make the pickup easier...we got away with it here because instead of just flooding Ruiz because TJJ did fan out to cover the right edge but the 2 rushers safety and LB in the middle did a "twist" pressure which allowed TJJ to come back and cover.

 

[NOLAJM504]

Part of Winston’s whole problem is he’s trying too hard -not- to be the Winston that threw way too many picks in Tampa that he’s playing it way too safe here in NOLA.

He doesn’t trust himself to let it rip like he used to, so he’s defaulting to a too careful approach — an approach that we saw A LOT of in the first 5 games of 2021, and 60 yards passing at halftime in each of the first two games seems to support that he’s picked up where he left off from 2021.

And then what’s worse is that he knows this and clearly overcompensated for it when he kept stubbornly trying to go against the grain on those missed deep passes late in the TB game.

What he and we need from him is better balance, and restraint. The perfect amount of restraint, not under and over compensation.

 

[BayouSAINTJoe]

Part of Winston’s whole problem is he’s trying too hard -not- to be the Winston that threw way too many picks in Tampa that he’s playing it way too safe here in NOLA.

He doesn’t trust himself to let it rip like he used to, so he’s defaulting to a too careful approach — an approach that we saw A LOT of in the first 5 games of 2021, and 60 yards passing at halftime in each of the first two games seems to support that he’s picked up where he left off from 2021.

And then what’s worse is that he knows this and clearly overcompensated for it when he kept stubbornly trying to go against the grain on those missed deep passes late in the TB game.

What he and we need from him is better balance, and restraint. The perfect amount of restraint, not under and over compensation.

You're right he's overthinking and not playing instinctive football because the narrative of his instincts sucks has been all he's heard over the last 4 years. I actually think we (Saints) broke him

 

[jahsoul357]

You're right he's overthinking and not playing instinctive football because the narrative of his instincts sucks has been all he's heard over the last 4 years. I actually think we (Saints) broke him

I hope that this isn't the case and he has someone close to him who he trust to tell him to get out his head or his own way.

I said something similar last year and the truth is, no one can tell you what Jameis needed to fix without defaulting to the 2019 season. I would love for someone to disprove it but this is how he finished out 2018.



Averaging over 30 throws per game, completing 64%, 4 interceptions across 7 games to 13TDs, and a QB rating of over 100. So for a QB that has improved every year in the league until he was put in a system where a QB normally have their worst season the first year in the system, what all did we really have to change?

Could there have been tweaks and improvements? Sure, but a "break you down to build you up" was not needed, and truthfully, that rarely ever works the way it needs to.

 

[BayouSAINTJoe]

I hope that this isn't the case and he has someone close to him who he trust to tell him to get out his head or his own way.

I said something similar last year and the truth is, no one can tell you what Jameis needed to fix without defaulting to the 2019 season. I would love for someone to disprove it but this is how he finished out 2018.



Averaging over 30 throws per game, completing 64%, 4 interceptions across 7 games to 13TDs, and a QB rating of over 100. So for a QB that has improved every year in the league until he was put in a system where a QB normally have their worst season the first year in the system, what all did we really have to change?

Could there have been tweaks and improvements? Sure, but a "break you down to build you up" was not needed, and truthfully, that rarely ever works the way it needs to.

He was broken down...and the HC dipped before the build back up....he needs to sit down, throw "Top Gun Maverick" on and remember the line "Don't think, just do"....I for one, won't be mad at 300yd 4td 2int effort, he's overthinking it trying too hard to throw 0 INTs...he needs to forget about that, ALL QBs throw INTS.

 

[HburgSaints]

One interesting thing I like to look at with Quarterbacks are their next gen stats. Some things stood out when I took a look at two specific stats. The first stat is time to throw which measures the average amount of time elapsed from the time of snap to throw on every pass attempt for a passer (sacks excluded) . Looking back since 2016 (that is when the next gen stats start), he has never been below 2.7+ seconds in the time to throw stat. Comparing that number to some of the other successful true pocket passers, they were more around the 2.5-2.6 time to throw range. This tells me that Jameis is one that tends to let a route tree develop a little more before making the decision to throw. So if your line isn't holding up, you probably aren't going to be as successful when holding the ball longer. I then went and compared it to last year, Jameis actually had a longer time to throw stat, but had 11 sacks in 6 games compared to 10 in two games this year. Clearly, there is a blocking scheme issue that needs to be resolved because the sack count can't keep going like this if he is going to return to last year's form.

The second stat that jumped out at me was his aggressiveness stat. Aggressiveness tracks the amount of passing attempts a quarterback makes that are into tight coverage, where there is a defender within 1 yard or less of the receiver at the time of completion or incompletion. AGG is shown as a % of attempts into tight windows over all passing attempts. This year, his agg stat is 23% which is third highest compared to 11.8% last year which was fourth lowest. Now this stat alone doesn't seem to dictate success or failure across the NFL, but with Jameis I don't think its coincidence that being more aggressive has translated into more mistakes. It may have something to do in him thinking that having a more talented receiving core allows him to take more chances.

 

[BoxerJoe]

The second stat that jumped out at me was his aggressiveness stat. Aggressiveness tracks the amount of passing attempts a quarterback makes that are into tight coverage, where there is a defender within 1 yard or less of the receiver at the time of completion or incompletion. AGG is shown as a % of attempts into tight windows over all passing attempts. This year, his agg stat is 23% which is third highest compared to 11.8% last year which was fourth lowest. Now this stat alone doesn't seem to dictate success or failure across the NFL, but with Jameis I don't think its coincidence that being more aggressive has translated into more mistakes. It may have something to do in him thinking that having a more talented receiving core allows him to take more chances.

Remember last season when some fans were on Payton's case because he wouldn't "let Jameis cook"? As it turns out, Payton knew what he was doing in bringing Jameis along as slowly as he was then. It's a shame that Payton didn't get to continue to bring along Jameis for the full season last year.

 

[DJ1BigTymer]

He was broken down...and the HC dipped before the build back up....he needs to sit down, throw "Top Gun Maverick" on and remember the line "Don't think, just do"....

I totally agree with your first point...you could have stopped right there.

His problem isn't overthinking, it's him reverting back to his bad habit of panic throws and "hero ball", two of the things that I hoped Payton would break him of doing. Another thing he hasn't improved on is taking what the D gives him, the deeper routes will come once he has loosen up the D by picking them apart underneath.

Again, that's coaching. Maybe the staff is cutting too much slack on him due to him coming off the ACL, but I like to think that Payton would have been on his arse after the 1st pick because there were better options for him than a long ball to a well covered rookie. DA didn't do that, neither did PC and that is the same type of response that made Winston who he is today.

 

[jahsoul357]

One interesting thing I like to look at with Quarterbacks are their next gen stats. Some things stood out when I took a look at two specific stats. The first stat is time to throw which measures the average amount of time elapsed from the time of snap to throw on every pass attempt for a passer (sacks excluded) . Looking back since 2016 (that is when the next gen stats start), he has never been below 2.7+ seconds in the time to throw stat. Comparing that number to some of the other successful true pocket passers, they were more around the 2.5-2.6 time to throw range. This tells me that Jameis is one that tends to let a route tree develop a little more before making the decision to throw. So if your line isn't holding up, you probably aren't going to be as successful when holding the ball longer. I then went and compared it to last year, Jameis actually had a longer time to throw stat, but had 11 sacks in 6 games compared to 10 in two games this year. Clearly, there is a blocking scheme issue that needs to be resolved because the sack count can't keep going like this if he is going to return to last year's form.

The second stat that jumped out at me was his aggressiveness stat. Aggressiveness tracks the amount of passing attempts a quarterback makes that are into tight coverage, where there is a defender within 1 yard or less of the receiver at the time of completion or incompletion. AGG is shown as a % of attempts into tight windows over all passing attempts. This year, his agg stat is 23% which is third highest compared to 11.8% last year which was fourth lowest. Now this stat alone doesn't seem to dictate success or failure across the NFL, but with Jameis I don't think its coincidence that being more aggressive has translated into more mistakes. It may have something to do in him thinking that having a more talented receiving core allows him to take more chances.

That's the nature of the Air Coryell. When you also compare his stats to true pocket passes (or any other passer in the league). you could note that there has been no QB that has thrown the ball further than him.



Since coming into the league, no QB has contributed as much to their actual yardage as Jameis. When comparing our QB against others, we never take into account the offense that's ran. He will always grade out lower as it relates to other QBs because the vast majority of QBs in the league play in a dink and dunk (West Coast) offense and it's been that way since the league made rule changes for things such as "helpless receivers."

Remember last season when some fans were on Payton's case because he wouldn't "let Jameis cook"? As it turns out, Payton knew what he was doing in bringing Jameis along as slowly as he was then. It's a shame that Payton didn't get to continue to bring along Jameis for the full season last year.

With the group of receivers we had last year, I hope no one was looking for full blown cooking. We should have opened it more but I gave an example of how he ended the 2018 a few post back. If he can do that with a team with a worse personnel and even more so coaching, at what point do we look at the totality of the situation.

I totally agree with your first point...you could have stopped right there.

His problem isn't overthinking, it's him reverting back to his bad habit of panic throws and "hero ball", two of the things that I hoped Payton would break him of doing. Another thing he hasn't improved on is taking what the D gives him, the deeper routes will come once he has loosen up the D by picking them apart underneath.

Again, that's coaching. Maybe the staff is cutting too much slack on him due to him coming off the ACL, but I like to think that Payton would have been on his arse after the 1st pick because there were better options for him than a long ball to a well covered rookie. DA didn't do that, neither did PC and that is the same type of response that made Winston who he is today.

Every QB makes panic throws. haha But I get what you are saying but the thing about the vast majority of those deep routes were the receiver was open. We can say "why did he do it" but for most of the game, they were there and if he was healthy, we would be having a different conversation. I believe that he should have sat and the play that let me know it was when he got stripped from behind instead of running for the first.

 

[BayouSAINTJoe]

I totally agree with your first point...you could have stopped right there.

His problem isn't overthinking, it's him reverting back to his bad habit of panic throws and "hero ball", two of the things that I hoped Payton would break him of doing. Another thing he hasn't improved on is taking what the D gives him, the deeper routes will come once he has loosen up the D by picking them apart underneath.

Again, that's coaching. Maybe the staff is cutting too much slack on him due to him coming off the ACL, but I like to think that Payton would have been on his arse after the 1st pick because there were better options for him than a long ball to a well covered rookie. DA didn't do that, neither did PC and that is the same type of response that made Winston who he is today.

I disagree w/ your disagreement w/ my part of my 2nd point...the deep throw to Olave was fine....he had a step in 1 on 1 coverage....him being a rookie has no bearing, that's why we traded up in the first to get him...to make these plays. This isn't a bad read, we used to go at Hill because he waited for the free break, this is throwing with anticipation....he's clear of the safety and has a good cushion to the inside of the DB in man coverage...ball placement, and type of throw...this one hung up there, wasn't the best - but it wasn't a bad read.

 

[BoxerJoe]

With the group of receivers we had last year, I hope no one was looking for full blown cooking. We should have opened it more but I gave an example of how he ended the 2018 a few post back. If he can do that with a team with a worse personnel and even more so coaching, at what point do we look at the totality of the situation.

Oh, people here and on social media were absolutely on Payton for not letting Winston "cook." You know how people are. A "Let Russ cook" meme starts about Russell Wilson in Seattle and others want to hop on board that terminology and sentiment regarding their QBs if they can make it apply. Payton seemed more comfortable with letting Siemian have a looser leash with the same personnel. The leash was starting to get looser for Winston but Payton clearly had a measured plan in that regard due to Winston's past tendencies needing to get worked out of him more.

 

[Pa.Saint]

The offense and the starters had enough time to get on the same page. That’s a fact.

no Winston, no Thomas in pre season

 

[blackadder]

MT was open a LOT yesterday. That isn't a sync problem. Winston has struggled for 7 quarters in all phases of the game. MT could have had his best game vs Davis. Winston was trying so hard to hit Olave (and even Olave had a few steps on some of those) and it was clear his deep ball was not there, all game. I get the rhythm is off, but that doesn't excuse the terrible decisions. I want to give Winston another chance, but if he struggles vs Carolina they gotta try Dalton. I hate to admit it but Dalton might be better in this offense since apparently they still trying to run a variation of the Brees offense and Winston is terrible at quick read/throws.

Especially if you are to believe he has back injury severe enough to require pain blockers. I know they want to avoid the QB controversy but if he’s hurting and can’t accurately deliver the ball he should sit out.

 

[ShortFuzed9]

Its the play calling, Carmichaels scheme has been out dated for 6 seasons now. The Saints offense was dangerous because the TE or Slot WR would abuse the LB in coveragre. More Nickle and Dime makes it harder to get the matchup you want. Still wonder how Mediocre offenses move the ball on a respected defense but we cant zoom on other teams practice squad.