The problem of White Supremacy - Spinoff from Buffalo Shooting thread (1 Viewer)

[guidomerkinsrules]

Society is not ready to have a conversation about critical design flaws that are ever so present that are woven into the destruction that falls under the darker side of human nature. Such conversations, if we're going to have an honest discussion devoid of agenda's and focus strictly on the human being as such is going to be a very uncomfortable conversation where certain realities are going to inevitably rear its ugly head about how destructive we are as a species.

So while mainstream society reiterates old boring and tired talking points looking for the big bad boogieman that is neatly packaged with whatever preferred narrative that helps them sleep at night, people who know the truth of this reality understands that this is a problem that is unfixable and will forever be bogged down in the politics surrounding the access of mass killing potential of certain weapons.

As for the racial aspect of this particular incident, I.E blatant hateful ideology that leads one to racist thoughts to the point where someone blamed the ills of society on two groups of people, blacks and jews, the only question I have is, can you remove extreme biases from human beings? I say its impossible and is never going to happen. Racism is an extreme bias against a group of people on the basis of race, biases exist in every day society from minor, choosing where to eat for the day, vs
extreme I.E, hating someone based on religion, sexual orientation, gender and race, etc.

We've decided as a society to attempt to educate, showing why these behaviors are unacceptable and have tried to mitigate these extreme biases by creating social consequences of having such thoughts. If someone hates another group of people based on any of the criteria that makes up another human being, aka, certain characteristics, we shame the heck out of them, cancel them, fire them, run them out on a rail, so to speak. However, does that really fix the problem? All that really has accomplished is making what was once very public become very private, the hatred of said people just festers outside of the view of the public eye. Despite all the attempts to educate and mitigate, it still rears its ugly face, time and time again because in reality, you cannot legislate human bias from the human being, no matter how minor or extreme it is, in this case we're only talking about extreme biases against groups of people on the basis of said criteria.

Hypothetically speaking, lets say, tomorrow, 4chan is banned from the internet and the reasoning is that its a hub for hate, it is stated that these imageboards are too dangerous for people to access them because of(insert your reasoning here) there would be multiple new sources to replace them in literal hours of their banning, only this time it would be more underground and out of the public eye. You didn't change anything, you effectively made things much worse, what was once public now becomes the underbelly and nothing changes in the end.

The attempt of exterminating entire groups of people is nothing new, its been a feature of human beings since the dawn of man. I bet if we had better historians, we would find such extreme biases similar to racism playing out in the days of cavemen where certain cavemen either hated the way other cavemen looked or hated whatever early rituals they adopted and killed them based on that.

While I think we can do better to mitigate access to mass kill weapons to mentally deranged people and doing a better job of watching people who exhibit the stereotypical warning signs that these mass shooters all seem to share, we will never eradicate extreme biases from human beings. While some people think this is a bug in the human condition, I say its a feature that has existed since the dawn of man.

No matter how much you educate and attempt to mitigate, you're always gonna have those who fall through the cracks and carry out these terrorist attacks.

Your pov is certainly legit - but it pre-supposes a clunky silver bullet approach and it also presupposes that we’d try to eliminate it
Because we don’t have a cure for cancer doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t develop better medicines or live healthier to try and avoid cancer

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

Unfortunately, hate and racism will always exist in this country and around the world. It is simply a part of human existence. Aside from racism, there is sexism, ageism, you name it, ism’s. Let’s not forget handicap-ism.

All said, it boils down to. How do we prevent the mental hate, from becoming/evolving/transitioning into a physical assault? That will always be the biggest challenge, IMO. People will always have hate and bias. We need to do better at keeping that in check, but it is getting worse as people that are weak and who feel more socially isolated will act out in a physical way.

Penalizing the propaganda that weaponizes the hate would b a good start

 

[gavinj]

"What's the deal with white supremacy?"

It comes with sour cream.

 

[FL_Saint]

I do not disagree with most of what has been posted. I especially like the idea of modeling school topics with how Germany is teaching about the Holocaust. People need to understand the history. And there needs to be a better job done explaining, without condescending or assigning blame. You introduce negativity directed at a person or group, they are going to shut down. We had a diversity discussion presentation at work with breakout sessions. First one, I was told to shut up and listen because I was the only white person in the breakout and I was going to be told how I contributed to racism. Ask how much I participated, not that I was going to be allowed to, after that? Second breakout with different participants, again I was the only white person . . . we had a very good conversation about our commonalities. How we were alike, not how we were different.

Social media, mainstream "news" media and politicians have a large effect on racism in this country.

 

[Optimus Prime]

That was sort of the point of my second sarcastic comment.

They are afraid that karma is gonna spin the block.

Posted this on MAP

You know why

You know EXACTLY why

it's the same reason the China Flu is racist

because it's used to excuse and encourage racist behavior and opinions

The 13% is a population version of "might makes right"

They're ONLY 13%. Who cares what they think?

They're ONLY 13%. Who cares what they want?

We can treat them however we want. They're ONLY 13%, What can they do about it?

Why are we changing all these rules, laws, attitudes and mindsets for ONLY 13%

The problem with this attitude?

The year 2044. That's the year when according to the Census Bureau the United States of America will become a majority minority country

White people will still be the single most populous race but all other races combined will be more than 50%

When you hear "they're taking our country" that's what they're talking about, that's what they're worried about, that's what they're terrified about

But what they are most terrified about, is being treated like they've treated everyone else

When the attitude is "Might makes right", and you've been wielding that hammer for centuries and you lose your "might" you're scared just waiting for the hammer blow

 

[Optimus Prime]

Also, white people have to step up and say that this is a problem. Doing nothing only helps the racists and bigots.

I think it's more to it than that

It has to be the 'right' white people stepping up

And the 'right' white people are the ones who carry weight and influence with the racists and the bigots

Rachel Maddow, John Oliver, Anderson Cooper and their three hugging hippie neighbor are NOT the 'right' white people

The racists and bigots could care less what they think or say (and frankly probably enjoy their outrage)

The stepping up has to come from people they don't expect

From people they consider friends, people who they were openly racist with before who say, 'I don't think that's funny anymore', "Dude, I don't think that way anymore', 'we were wrong', 'Don't say things like that around me again'

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

I do not disagree with most of what has been posted. I especially like the idea of modeling school topics with how Germany is teaching about the Holocaust. People need to understand the history. And there needs to be a better job done explaining, without condescending or assigning blame. You introduce negativity directed at a person or group, they are going to shut down. We had a diversity discussion presentation at work with breakout sessions. First one, I was told to shut up and listen because I was the only white person in the breakout and I was going to be told how I contributed to racism. Ask how much I participated, not that I was going to be allowed to, after that? Second breakout with different participants, again I was the only white person . . . we had a very good conversation about our commonalities. How we were alike, not how we were different.

Social media, mainstream "news" media and politicians have a large effect on racism in this country.

Out of curiosity- what specifically happened in the first breakout session

 

[saintmdterps]

Posted this on MAP

What the Anglo-Europeans stole by force and invasion they will now lose to assimilation. Fine. In the balance it’s not like white people have been good stewards in any way, shape, or form.

 

[Semper]

I don’t think we will see anyone happy about racism in our lifetimes. I think we will see progress for sure, but never to a point where we as a society say “we are there.” I have seen progress in my lifetime. I grew up in New Orleans and moved to a small town as a teenager. I saw the difference right away. I wasn’t allowed to invite friends to salary with us for a few days because I was told it wouldn’t go well. The high school I went through had to drive through my town for away football games and the black fella’s would lower their heads below the windows. A friend was kicked out of their home by their parents at 16 for dating a black person. And it is not just the south. I live in Wisconsin and see racism here. For me personally though I have seen change. Is it fast enough, of course not.

 

[DaveXA]

What the Anglo-Europeans stole by force and invasion they will now lose to assimilation. Fine. In the balance it’s not like white people have been good stewards in any way, shape, or form.

You're not wrong. But, I would just say that finding a way forward while acknowledging the past is better than solely dwelling on past behavior. How do we get away from racist stereotypes and live together in this messed up culture? What I think we should be focused on is neutralizing the proverbial megaphones white supremacist leaders are using to indoctrinate susceptible people like this kid who killed innocent people and started getting into the white supremacy crap when he was 16. There are more than a few vulnerable, resentful poor white kids out there who are easy pickings for white supermacist/nationalist groups.

 

[DaveXA]

Penalizing the propaganda that weaponizes the hate would b a good start

I'd like to see that happen, but I'm just thinking how do we make that happen?

 

[bigdaddysaints]

I have a lot of random thoughts that on the issue that I can't really make into a coherent whole, so I'll just sort of post.

1. On the surface it is very frustrating because people my age and general upbringing (middle class southern educated white family) have mostly been raised to believe that racism is absolutely terrible and a relic of the past. We've been basically been taught that we just need to believe everyone is the same and it will all be ok. And clearly it hasn't worked out that way. So, not only did what we want to believe to be true is in fact not true, but we are also really not equipped to talk about the issue... since collectively we were taught that being racist is terrible and your a terrible person if you're racist, and wait, if in fact racism is baked into everything, does that make us all terrible people? No one wants to believe they're a terrible person.. so whenever the issue comes up we retreat to defensiveness. Basically, we don't even know how to talk about the issue.

2. Lots of things can be true at once, and that can be confusing. You can be white and poor and have disadvantages, and the system can still be set up to favor white people. And that can lead to tons of resentment. If I'm poor, and have poor health care, and tons of debt and poor access to tools to improve my life, it has got to be incredibly frustrating to hear how the system is rigged in their favor and that we need to give more money and advantages to minorities. They might not have anything specifically against minorities, but they sure as heck don't want people to get more help than they are getting when they are struggling. I think a lot of modern day racism and resentment stems from this.

3. Going back to issue one, we've never had an actual discussion on everything that was done to hinder minorities, made a real apology and done anything specifically to redress those wrongs. Those are critical for national healing, but now it has gone on so long without that, that it becomes harder and seems less "just", because the effects are no longer direct, they're in the weeds and pervasive, but not directly obvious.

4. Some of this can be addressed in the near term by creating a more equitable system, where everyone gets similar resources to make their lives better. Black Americans will get more of this help because they are the ones collectively with fewer resources to begin with, but it will also benefit everyone. This means better schools, health care and so on for everyone. Try to actually create equality of opportunity (an impossible goal, but a worthy one).

1. I grew up in Livingston Parish. This is not a true statement with the people i grew up with. And to this day they are pretty much the same.
3. Not only have we not discussed this enough, a lot of R's are making laws banning this type of discussion in schools.

 

[St. Widge]

I would suggest that this board (the EE specifically) might be a microcosm of sone of the whiter (but purplish) cities in the country- maybe like Nashville or Charlotte or Indianapolis

I think the EE kind of reflects what Jim was saying in his post. The majority is probably highly educated white people (males specifically) who grew up being taught that racism is wrong but mostly didn't, and maybe still don't, understand all the ways it is baked into the system and how pervasive it is in society.

I grew up in a family where we were taught that you judge people by who they are and not by their color. So, I was lucky in that regard. But, honestly, because of who my friends and family were along with the types of people I was around, I honestly thought that real racism was a thing of the past by the late-1990s and certainly with the election of President Obama. I had seen a bit of it when I was stopped by St. Bernard Sheriff's because I had crossed the Orleans Parish line with a black guy I went to U.N.O. with in my car, but they let us go because I was white enough and had a license with a St. Bernard address. I also recall a black kid that I went to high school with being detained in front of his own house by J.P. because they didn't think he belonged in that neighborhood. But, by the time I got out of school and started working it seemed that all that was in our past.

It wasn't until I started working with a black woman who, after working together for many years, felt comfortable enough to talk to me about what really went on in this world that I really understood that the effects of centuries of racism and that both overt, unconscious, and systemic racism were still very strong in this country. I was totally ignorant of it because I lived in a bubble where those harsh realties didn't exist. And, I think a lot of white people live in the same world as I did. Although it's become much harder to turn a blind eye to those things with the rise of Black Lives matter, but I think some still choose to ignore it and some just refuse to believe it because if it's true changing it wouldn't be to their benefit.

But, I also know that while that experience is probably fairly common on the EE, the broader world is much more overtly racist than that. But, I think that means it's incumbent on we white guys who have been lucky enough to truly understand the problem (to the extent that I can truly understand the problem) to speak out about it in our circles of white friends who are likely just as ignorant of the world around them as we were.

 

[Booker]

I think the first step is America has to admit this is a problem and has treated people of color as inferiors since it's inception. You know, kind of like AA where the patients introduce themselves.

Also, white people have to step up and say that this is a problem. Doing nothing only helps the racists and bigots.

Unfortunately right now the opposite is occuring, where even trying to discuss racism, much less acknowledge it, is attacked as spreading "divisive concepts" because it makes certain people uncomfortable.

Penalizing the propaganda that weaponizes the hate would b a good start

And those same certain people would clutch their pearls and say you're attacking free speech.

 

[FL_Saint]

Out of curiosity- what specifically happened in the first breakout session

It was supposed to be a dialogue type of thing, but I don't remember the specific question that was supposed to be addressed, but it wasn't supposed to be a one sided conversation. I remember joining, via video meeting, there were a couple of folks that said something like "Oh, great, we have a white guy." One person said that they weren't interested in my input, I was just supposed listen to them talk about all the ways I was racist. And that is how it was addressed. "I" was racist, not a general thing. The organization I work for has about 12k employees. I didn't know them, they didn't know me, this was a national call with people from all over the country and various programs.

The second breakout was really fantastic, we talked a lot about how people can find common ground on various issues. It was a true dialogue.

The point I was trying to make is that any "discussion" that starts off accusatory or assigning blame is not going to be productive.