The Demonstrations in Minnesota (Update: Now Nationwide){Now International} (4 Viewers)

[Saint_Ward]

I have no doubt that white nationalists would do this, but it's equally possible that ANTIFA would use this as an opportunity to promote their own form of anarchy.

Anyway, I don't know if it's white nationalists, ANTIFA, or both, but this thread suggests that it's a lot of out of town white agitators that are starting much of the looting and violence.

A lot of that thread is dead on. And any instigators should be dealt with, especially people from out of state stoking the flames. They should get harsher sentences. Only way to stop that crap.

On her last point... I think that is foolish. You can't build an alliance if you treat allies as only appropriating your cause. Help is good. Things only get better when white people have had enough of the treatment of blacks and other minorities. Women only see sexism and unfair treatment lessen when men stand up to it and say "enough".

If people continue to say, "well, it isn't my problem", that's how it continues to be a problem.

 

[Madmarsha]

Honestly, if the public went by what we think a criminal deserves, everyone would get life in prison or the death penalty.

Of course. But what's the answer?

 

[baarbogast]

More hatred and violence. He's pretty much a lame duck at this point and even he knows it and that is terrifying.

Every poll in 2016 said he would lose.

 

[St. Widge]

A lot of that thread is dead on. And any instigators should be dealt with, especially people from out of state stoking the flames. They should get harsher sentences. Only way to stop that crap.

On her last point... I think that is foolish. You can't build an alliance if you treat allies as only appropriating your cause. Help is good. Things only get better when white people have had enough of the treatment of blacks and other minorities. Women only see sexism and unfair treatment lessen when men stand up to it and say "enough".

If people continue to say, "well, it isn't my problem", that's how it continues to be a problem.

I agree on both accounts. The initial points are great, but I'm not sure I totally agree with the conclusion. These protests need to come from a coalition of all races (and political parties for that matter) in order to affect real change. For years it's mostly just been black folks involved which makes it easier for the country to dismiss or minimizes the issues. So, yeah, young white kids should be welcomed.

So, I don't know exactly what the person who wrote those Tweets meant, but I took it as her more having an issue with white people who were agitators, starting violence and destroying property which gets black people beaten, arrested and kept in jail, while the white folks who started the violence and property destruction get out of jail right away because they have the money to pay good lawyers. I'm not sure that's the total reality of what happens or that I totally agree with it, but I can see why black people would see it that way.

 

[N.O.Bronco]

It would remove huge barriers, the same barriers that have prevented change since the 60's. I really believe the country has changed significantly over the last 60 years and most white people aren't racist and support the end to racism but that change isn't being reflected at the political and legislative levels. The barriers are most certainly getting in the way of real legislation, real change. You can't hold the police accountable because we can't hold our legislators accountable to make changes. It's hard to fight the LEO, prison and protection industry because they are intertwined financially with our politicians. Again though, it's not just campaign reform, it is lobbying, insider trading and corruption policies across the board.

I was watching a documentary on China vs the USA and a very smart Chinese political analysis said the biggest difference between the USA and China is in China you can't change parties but you can change policy, in the USA you can change parties but you can't change policy. Why is that? I think we both know the answer.

So, if you believe that we have a government that perpetuates systemic racism and we can't change policy then how are we going to change?

I mean if we really want to dive into it, lobbying and the sort of campaign finance rot we see today is not that longstanding of a phenomenon. Much of the biggest rot only really got going in the last couple decades. Which is largely why I share a lot of skepticism that fixing something by realigning our politics back to a place that still built the foundation that allowed 500 years of unchecked white supremacy and racism to infiltrate most sectors of the country isn’t going to suddenly cure it.

Like I said, on some matters it is a foundation to remove barriers, and as a matter of principle and policy I wholeheartedly endorse it. But I just wouldn’t be willing to call it the smoking gun for America’s ills. Things are just too complex for that.

There honestly isn’t all that much money in racism at the corporate level, except when it comes to monetizing the distributional outcomes of a racist society to hedge against that artificailly-created risk(see the persistence of red-lining). When need be they(corporations) will gladly use it as a means to an end Behind the scenes, like with Trump, who used racism because it was an easy emotional trigger to pull in and foster a loyal base of support, and Trump supports the business class almost reflexively, so it is working partnership until he can no longer effectively do that. But that success also speaks to it’s(racism) prevailing pervasiveness in society(and if that isn’t enough, just look at Google analytics on Americans searches). I don’t think it is nearly as dead as you think, personally.

The way we change a lot of it is by taking to heart what MLK said: The ultimate tragedy is not the oppression and cruelty by the bad people but the silence over that by the good people. Campaign finance is good, but ultimately a lot of what needs to happen exists outside that constraint, and is constrained by a different barrier, that of apathy, resentment, cultural prejudices, and prioritization.

 

[Saint_Ward]

What is that obvious disease?

That silver bullet fix?

I don’t think any of your observations are necessarily wrong, but I don‘t really see what is the obvious solution, either?

Racism has been America’s original sin, it strains my imagination to think there is one obvious and easy solution to it?

Not to stir the pot, but not sure if racism alone is the Original Sin. Classism is, to me. Rich, white, male, landowners were the only power. What kept if that way was how easily a white male could go out to the woods (west), and essentially make that land "his".

Women were left with now power. Blacks had no power and were seen as another "class".

Black slaves clearly had it the worst. No doubt. But the sin was wider than that. It was just most brutal to them.

 

[DaveXA]

I agree on both accounts. The initial points are great, but I'm not sure I totally agree with the conclusion. These protests need to come from a coalition of all races (and political parties for that matter) in order to affect real change. For years it's mostly just been black folks involved which makes it easier for the country to dismiss or minimizes the issues. So, yeah, young white kids should be welcomed.

So, I don't know exactly what the person who wrote those Tweets meant, but I took it as her more having an issue with white people who were agitators, starting violence and destroying property which gets black people beaten, arrested and kept in jail, while the white folks who started the violence and property destruction get out of jail right away because they have the money to pay good lawyers. I'm not sure that's the total reality of what happens or that I totally agree with it, but I can see why black people would see it that way.

Oh, I think there's a lot of validity to it. As a general rule, these agitators have their organizations backing them and they'll get bailed out and or represented by attorneys who can cut deals for them. Poorer blacks and other minorities won't have that same access.

It's not entirely like that, but I think it happens enough that the feeling is entirely justified.

 

[AARPSaint]

Barr saying that the "outside agitators" are antifa people. I guess they are the only groups involved. The good news is that federal charges can be brought for interstate activities that lead to or bring about crime.

 

[St. Geezy]

Attorney General Barr just announced that they have indeed uncovered that extremist groups are the "primary" people agitating the situation and starting these riots.

 

[N.O.Bronco]

Not to stir the pot, but not sure if racism alone is the Original Sin. Classism is, to me. Rich, white, male, landowners were the only power. What kept if that way was how easily a white male could go out to the woods (west), and essentially make that land "his".

Women were left with now power. Blacks had no power and were seen as another "class".

Black slaves clearly had it the worst. No doubt. But the sin was wider than that. It was just most brutal to them.

I mean even poor farmers were killing and pillaging native people at even the earliest moments in American history. One of the unsung motivators for the “average” colonist was not actually taxation without representation or an urge and yearning to be free of British rule as the sanitized narratives tend to focus on, but pervasive conspiracies in key places like Boston that the British were secretly moving to enact the systematic enslavement of white colonists. Conspiracies drummed up by people like Samuel Adams. Who was basically a BreitBart/FoxNews force of his day playing on prejudicial fears and attitudes to mobilize outrage toward a larger purpose he shared. And fears around racial attitudes were the lowest hanging fruit.

But overall it’s not really a fight worth carrying on for me, as you both make fair points, as long as everyone has the consensus that it was and remains a formidably long-lingering and pervasive rot. Which I think all of us do.

 

[Saint_Ward]

Of course. But what's the answer?

Let the process play out. I think the backlash and protests pushed for the correct conclusion, a quick arrest and some outside monitoring. Not sure if this case needs to be handled by the feds or what can be done to ensure the DA doesnt play favorites. But you can't protest towards a conviction or a charge.

 

[Taurus]

Really hard to prove intent. I’m all for the highest possible charge that can win.

Is "Depraved indifference" a thing in Minn?
If that's the rationale behind the 3rd-degree charge, so be it I guess.

 

[DaveXA]

Barr saying that the "outside agitators" are antifa people. I guess they are the only groups involved. The good news is that federal charges can be brought for interstate activities that lead to or bring about crime.

Technically, he said Antifa-like. So, maybe splitting hairs, but right wing radicals are Antifa-like in my book,

What caught my attention though was the Feds can arrest and prosecute the agitators from out of state, who crossed state lines with the intent to incite riots. That sounded like a legitimate way to get the agitators off the streets. Curious to see if that sticks.

 

[DaveXA]

Is "Depraved indifference" a thing in Minn?
If that's the rationale behind the 3rd-degree charge, so be it I guess.

Certainly seems to be in the 3rd degree murder statute. Seems like it is a thing as far as I can tell.

 

[Taurus]

Not sure how much time it would take to truly unpack all the borderline racist bullshirt stuffed into this one paragraph.

We have the obvious stereotyping, the “blacks,” a nice reference to “the good ones” trope that infers black people are generally bad, but there are some good ones(often held down by all the bad ones). Then there is just the entire horseshirt narrative attempting to blame black people for bad police and bad police policies by setting up a caricature straight out of a kkk snuff film about black people oppressing their communities and making it impossible for the white knights(literally) to shine through.

There is no “good” form of broken windows policing, there is no “good” form of non-community based policing. There is no “good” form of militarizing police forces.

And to this person and the person saying most cops are good. If you have one bad cop on the beat committing ongoing acts of unjust racial prejudice or violence, and 10 good cops that do not. But those 10 cops don’t take action against the one bad cop. And worse, defer to the “brotherhood” motto of protecting their own when a complaint is filed. You know what you now have? 11 bad cops. So you can give me every line you want about how there are only x number of bad cops in a community, but if you keep allowing those bad cops to police and slide by, all you actually have is bad police.

So. Much. This.

I hope it doesn't come to it, but 'good' cops, by their inaction are teaching us plebes to never surrender.
If I'm going to be choked to death like an animal, I may as well go down swinging.

So, to the good cops I ask, do you want every arrest to be a fight to the death? 'Cause this is how you get there.