The Saints have had the least draft picks of any team over the last 5 years. (1 Viewer)

[LSSpam]

Exactly the reason we fail in the draft. Bad defensive scouting which causes a lot of misses and lack of draft picks to get lucky and hit on a few players.

See this is what confuses me. "Bad defensive scouting" what does that mean? We can identify offensive linemen from Bloomberg and Towson, we can pick the pockets of other teams for their journeymen and turn them into pro bowl centers, but we can't find one damn linebacker? It's the same scouting department. It's the same scouts.

No, I think that it's just we're much better at developing offensive players and maximizing their abilities.

 

[SaintsW1n]

The Saints are reminiscent of the recent Colts: a highly-paid QB, a few successful drafts, then a succession of drafts that produced little, and an aging roster.

When Manning got hurt, it resulted in complete disaster. These next two drafts for the Saints are extremely important, especially considering the lack of picks in this year's draft.

 

[Swimmer]

It seems against the trend, but exclude the Goodell destroyed last year, we had the best record in the league in the 3 previous years. The lack of draft choices has concerned me, but the results prove Loomis and SP know what they are doing.

Ultimately, I guess that this weak draft strategy will show-up when Brees retires and we have to rebuild. But then again, if Loomis and SP hang around, I wouldn't be surprised at all if we stayed competitive beyond Brees.

 

[El Caliente]

We have the fewest picks in the last 5 years, yet we still remain competitive.

 

[bclemms]

In regards to bclemms:

The buck ultimately stops with Payton/Loomis, which I understand. That said, I think the clear difference in the quality of our defensive personal and quality of our offensive personal has to be the coaching.

There has been a clear, consistent vision for what the offense is and will be. We've stuck rigidly to price points with those players, letting guys who become to expensive go, developing young players over the course of years, and when we pick spots to have "impact" players we're almost always successful (Ingram and Meachem being debatable successes, but at least not outright busts).

We let Meachem walk with confidence that out of Arrington and Morgan one would develop. We did the same earlier in Payton's tenure, shipping out Stallworth for Simoneau and a bag of chips betting on a 7th rounder from Hofstra, a shockingly bold decision at the time. Same with the offensive line. First rounder Jammal Brown? No thanks, we have this dude from Towson you see... Carl Nicks, consensus top 2 or 3 offensive guard in the NFL? Replaceable. Jeff Faine? No we'll develop journeyman Goodwin. Oh, Goodwin, you're a pro bowler now? Hi De La Pueunte. And I haven't1 even touched the revolving door of capable RBs yet.

We've gotten none of that on defense. It's consistently been high draft picks and expensive free agents with very little to show. The gap between the two sides is shocking. To the point you can't say it's chance.

But the idea that we can't scout defensive talent seems laughable as well. We can consistently identify linemen like Bushrod, Nicks, Evans, Goodwin, De La Puente, Strief, etc, etc but we can't find one damn linebacker?

It has to be laid at the doors of the defensive coaching staff. I would accuse Payton of being too quick to pull the trigger on defensive coaches, but he hung with Gibbs for a solid 3 years and Williams, well, it seems he was let go for reasons beyond production. So I don't know.

I guess the best we can say is that Sean Payton really is one helluva a coach.

I'll agree with the defensive coaching to an extent. Payton runs the offense, he also doesn't have to bet on his job by playing an unproven rookie. Meanwhile, the defensive coordinators know if they are just average they can bring a trophy home at the end of the season.

Also, scouting and developing a player is an art and I haven't heard a single fan from a single team screaming to bring in Andy Reid to develop a teams safeties. As with anything else there are strength and weaknesses.

Do you know how much balls it would have taken Spagnuolo to come in and in his first season put a guy with the clout of Will Smith on the bench in favor of a guy like Junior?

Think about it this.
Elbert Mack- Easily had the best season out of all the Saints corners. Yeah, he had limited play time but he did very well every single chance he got. Was rated as one of the top defensive backs in the league by all the advanced stat sites. Where was he drafted? Undrafted free agent.
Patrick Robinson- Was our 1st round pick corner and #1 corner. He gave up the most yards of any corner in the league this season. Was rated among the league bottom on all the advanced stat sites. I think he is a lot better than that stat but to say he had a pretty bad year would be quite an understatement.

Junior Galette- Easily the best pass rusher on the team and played the run at a very high level. Among the league leaders in sacks per snap, pressures per snap, QB hits per snap and just about every other category. Rated among the leagues best pass rushers and rated quite high for a pass rusher in the running game. Where was he drafted? Undrafted free agent.
Will Smith- Was dismal this season. He had the second worst pass rusher efficiency and was among the bottom in the league for run defense. I can't think of a single player in the NFL that had a bigger gap between salary and performance, not even guys that were injured because at least they didn't hurt their team. Where was he drafted? 1st round

Isa Abdul Quddus- Was ranked among the leagues best in pass defense. Rated positively in every single game he played, something Jenkins didn't manage once. He wasn't great against the run but was leagues ahead of Jenkins. Where was he drafted? Undrafted free agent.
Malcolm Jenkins- Our 1st round pick cb moved to FS project was rated dead last out of 80 safeties in the league by PFF. Not only was he #80 against the pass, he was ranked #80 against the run. It takes mad skills to be the worst player in the league at your position in both the running and passing game.

Raphael Bush- Ranked highly in both the run and pass game. The moment he stepped on the field we looked remarkably better on defense. Where was he drafted? Undrafted free agent.
Roman Harper- Had one of the worst seasons I've seen from a SS. Was ranked only in front of Malcolm Jenkins by two different advanced stat sites. Wasn't a good fit in Spags system and Spags was constantly asking him to do things that played to Harper's weaknesses. Spags wasn't willing to change his system to fit Roman but he also wasn't willing to bench a captain. Where was he drafted? 2nd round.

Of those 4 undrafted free agents, not one was given a chance to start over the player in front of them. The only time they played was as a backup or when the starter was injured. It just so happens the only game in which these guys all got high snap counts we posted the teams first shutout in decades.

Our defense consisted of (4) 1st round picks on the dline. A 1st round pick and two high priced free agents at LB. A first round pick and a 2nd round pick at safety. A first round pick and high price free agent at CB. There wasn't a single position on the defense where the backup was a lower round pick, a higher paid player or an older player. Not a single example. That isn't by chance.

Compare that to the offense. We had one high price free agent (not including Brees), two first round picks (same player as the free agent) and a bunch of mid to late round picks and undrafted free agents.

The scouts don't decide who plays. So while I do think the scouts are better at finding offensive talent they also have done a better job than most give them credit for because we are bringing undrafted guys in that are playing at a high level but just not getting the chance to prove they can start full time.

 

[LSSpam]

Of those 4 undrafted free agents, not one was given a chance to start over the player in front of them. The only time they played was as a backup or when the starter was injured. It just so happens the only game in which these guys all got high snap counts we posted the teams first shutout in decades.

Yeah but, I mean, I just have to put that on the defensive coaches. I agree it's different for Payton to take risks as opposed to one of his employees, the defensive coordinator, but still, I can't imagine Payton would over rule any DC of his on something like depth chart.

I think, frankly, that the defensive coordinators thus far just havent had the balls to make those kind of "trade Stallworth and start Colston" moves. Most coaches don't. It's why Payton is one of the top coaches in the league.

I do agree the onus is on Payton to find a DC who WILL make those calls though.

I do, 100%, feel that the problem is not the front office scouting or decision making. Loomis doesn't pull the trigger himself, he listens to input from scouts and coaches, usually the scouts filtered by the coaching staff, and then works the mechanics to make it happen. He doesn't choose the gears, he turns the wrench. The onus is on Payton to put together the sort of defensive coaching staff that exhibits the same personal boldness and accommodation that his offensive staff does.

 

[bclemms]

Yeah but, I mean, I just have to put that on the defensive coaches. I agree it's different for Payton to take risks as opposed to one of his employees, the defensive coordinator, but still, I can't imagine Payton would over rule any DC of his on something like depth chart.

I think, frankly, that the defensive coordinators thus far just havent had the balls to make those kind of "trade Stallworth and start Colston" moves. Most coaches don't. It's why Payton is one of the top coaches in the league.

I do agree the onus is on Payton to find a DC who WILL make those calls though.

I do, 100%, feel that the problem is not the front office scouting or decision making. Loomis doesn't pull the trigger himself, he listens to input from scouts and coaches, usually the scouts filtered by the coaching staff, and then works the mechanics to make it happen. He doesn't choose the gears, he turns the wrench. The onus is on Payton to put together the sort of defensive coaching staff that exhibits the same personal boldness and accommodation that his offensive staff does.

We are in complete agreement.

I don't think Rex Ryan will have that problem and after watching a season from the fans perspective and openly saying he needs to be more involved on the defensive side of the ball Payton will step in if he feels we need to make a move like that and RR is slow to pull the trigger. The biggest problem with Rex Ryan is he wont be able to see what we have in person until after free agency and the draft are long over with.

Another thing making it hard for a DC to make that kind of move, he doesn't have his staff in place to back him up.

 

[LSSpam]

You remember Payton trading up for Antonio Pittman in the 4th, then cutting Pittman in favor of UDFA Pierre Thomas in preseason?

That's what we need from a defensive coach. Someone with the gumption to say "yeah, I fought for us to sign/draft this guy. And he sucks. We're starting this other guy"

 

[bclemms]

You remember Payton trading up for Antonio Pittman in the 4th, then cutting Pittman in favor of UDFA Pierre Thomas in preseason?

That's what we need from a defensive coach. Someone with the gumption to say "yeah, I fought for us to sign/draft this guy. And he sucks. We're starting this other guy"

Exactly. Even though that move was painfully obvious most coaches wouldn't have done it. They would have buried PT on the depth chart and stuck with a failed project at RB for a season.

 

[No2DC]

I'll agree with the defensive coaching to an extent. Payton runs the offense, he also doesn't have to bet on his job by playing an unproven rookie. Meanwhile, the defensive coordinators know if they are just average they can bring a trophy home at the end of the season.

Also, scouting and developing a player is an art and I haven't heard a single fan from a single team screaming to bring in Andy Reid to develop a teams safeties. As with anything else there are strength and weaknesses.

Do you know how much balls it would have taken Spagnuolo to come in and in his first season put a guy with the clout of Will Smith on the bench in favor of a guy like Junior?

Think about it this.
Elbert Mack- Easily had the best season out of all the Saints corners. Yeah, he had limited play time but he did very well every single chance he got. Was rated as one of the top defensive backs in the league by all the advanced stat sites. Where was he drafted? Undrafted free agent.
Patrick Robinson- Was our 1st round pick corner and #1 corner. He gave up the most yards of any corner in the league this season. Was rated among the league bottom on all the advanced stat sites. I think he is a lot better than that stat but to say he had a pretty bad year would be quite an understatement.

Junior Galette- Easily the best pass rusher on the team and played the run at a very high level. Among the league leaders in sacks per snap, pressures per snap, QB hits per snap and just about every other category. Rated among the leagues best pass rushers and rated quite high for a pass rusher in the running game. Where was he drafted? Undrafted free agent.
Will Smith- Was dismal this season. He had the second worst pass rusher efficiency and was among the bottom in the league for run defense. I can't think of a single player in the NFL that had a bigger gap between salary and performance, not even guys that were injured because at least they didn't hurt their team. Where was he drafted? 1st round

Isa Abdul Quddus- Was ranked among the leagues best in pass defense. Rated positively in every single game he played, something Jenkins didn't manage once. He wasn't great against the run but was leagues ahead of Jenkins. Where was he drafted? Undrafted free agent.
Malcolm Jenkins- Our 1st round pick cb moved to FS project was rated dead last out of 80 safeties in the league by PFF. Not only was he #80 against the pass, he was ranked #80 against the run. It takes mad skills to be the worst player in the league at your position in both the running and passing game.

Raphael Bush- Ranked highly in both the run and pass game. The moment he stepped on the field we looked remarkably better on defense. Where was he drafted? Undrafted free agent.
Roman Harper- Had one of the worst seasons I've seen from a SS. Was ranked only in front of Malcolm Jenkins by two different advanced stat sites. Wasn't a good fit in Spags system and Spags was constantly asking him to do things that played to Harper's weaknesses. Spags wasn't willing to change his system to fit Roman but he also wasn't willing to bench a captain. Where was he drafted? 2nd round.

Of those 4 undrafted free agents, not one was given a chance to start over the player in front of them. The only time they played was as a backup or when the starter was injured. It just so happens the only game in which these guys all got high snap counts we posted the teams first shutout in decades.

Our defense consisted of (4) 1st round picks on the dline. A 1st round pick and two high priced free agents at LB. A first round pick and a 2nd round pick at safety. A first round pick and high price free agent at CB. There wasn't a single position on the defense where the backup was a lower round pick, a higher paid player or an older player. Not a single example. That isn't by chance.

Compare that to the offense. We had one high price free agent (not including Brees), two first round picks (same player as the free agent) and a bunch of mid to late round picks and undrafted free agents.

The scouts don't decide who plays. So while I do think the scouts are better at finding offensive talent they also have done a better job than most give them credit for because we are bringing undrafted guys in that are playing at a high level but just not getting the chance to prove they can start full time.

Nice write up, but I don't give the FO a pass. And I don't think the answer is on our bench. Every damn year we get excited about a backup D player, but when he gets his chance its either that was good, but not great, or you're just okay (a backup). While I know coaching counts, but I don't think GW or Spag for that matter were holding back a baller. We don't find a Jimmy Graham or Marcus Coltson on D, and none of our 1st round picks become consistent pro-bowlers. The coaching needs to get better, but the FO gotta find some playmakers.
Oh yeah, I think any evaluation of our D has to be multiple years, just about everybody looked bad this year.

 

[bclemms]

Nice write up, but I don't give the FO a pass. And I don't think the answer is on our bench. Every damn year we get excited about a backup D player, but when he gets his chance its either that was good, but not great, or you're just okay (a backup).

Yeah, I remember when people were really excited about Jo Lonn Dunbar, Usama Young and Rob Ninkovich. Bet you can't name a single starting Saint defender to leave here and have any sort of success outside of Fujita who we really wanted to keep. If you want help, here is a list to choose from.

Charles Grant
Josh Bullocks
Jason David
Bryan Scott
Mark Simoneau
Hollis Thomas
Brian Young
Fred Thomas
Mike Mckenzie
Jay Bellamy
Willie Whitehead
Jason Craft
Kevin Kaesviharn
Brian Simmons
Remi Ayodele
Kendrick Clancy
Randall Gay
Bobby McCray
Alex Brown
Tracy Porter
Anthony Hargrove
Danny Clark
Shaun Rogers
Aubrayo Franklin

We may not get rid of a player a year too soon but you can bet your *** when they leave here they are done. We kept Charles Grant and Jeff Charleston over Rob Ninkovich. We kept a 5th Rb on the team and instead of trying to keep a guy like Jo Lonn Dunbar. We let Usama Young leave in place for Malcolm Jenkins, Jonathon Amaya (even traded for him), Johnny Patrick and Leigh Torrence. We gave up a quality starting FS for 3 players who aren't on the team and another that shouldn't be.

 

[El Caliente]

I think 1/2 that list can be found at you local Rally's flipping burgers.


Seriously, who are half of those guys?

 

[LSSpam]

Ninkovich starts for New England. JoLunn Dunbar starts for St.Louis. Usama Young has started for Cleveland. Aubrayo Franklin started for the Chargers. Tracy Porter started for Denver until he got hurt.

 

[LSSpam]

In fact, with Ninkovich, Dunbar, Young, Franklin, and Porter you have half a 3-4 defense that's better than the one we could currently field Throw in Jordan, Galette, Wilson, Hicks, Greer, Mack, and Lofton, find a safety and another DE and you have a decent defense.