The strategy for the Saints every week should be the same: Run the Ball, stop the run...Coach Payton!!! (1 Viewer)

[bclemms]

You seem to be focusing on specific games and I'm talking overall philosophy. But if you want game-specific: When you see Latavious Murray averaging 9 yards/carry in the Panthers game and he doesn't touch the ball in the second half or even on pivotal 3rd/4th & 1s, and we win because their kicker choked, I can't point that out as a concern? The NFC is TOUGH and I don't want to bank on those teams choking; I want us to do what we are capable of and let the chips fall where they may.

The drive chart for the 2nd half of that game was like this.
Touchdown
Touchdown
Punt (Punt as a result of a dropped TD)
Interception (ran on 1st setting up 2nd and 10, then missed communication between Brees and Ginn deep to set up 3rd and long where Interception occurred)
Downs (ran the ball on 4th down and lost yardage) Should have never been in that position because just before the 4th down we had another TD dropped in the end zone.
FG to win the game

So we scored 17 points in the second half despite 2 dropped TD's on drives that resulted in no points. If those two balls are caught we score 31 points in 2nd half or 8 more points than NFL teams average in a full game. If we catch that first TD instead of dropping it then we go up

Again though, look at the personnel groupings. Armstead goes down 6 minutes into the 3rd quarter. Murray had 6 carries at that point. After Armstead goes down and he had 1 carry the rest of the game.

 

[crosswatt]

You seem to be focusing on specific games and I'm talking overall philosophy.

Why change an overall philosophy that has resulted in the most consistently productive offense this league has ever seen? It has always been a pass-centric offense. Always. It has never been a "power running" offense. And would be greatly diminished by trying to fit that type of gameplan into the current scheme and roster, especially midseason.

 

[VPCajun]

Let's look a little bit deeper than screaming run the ball and dumb play calling.

Against the Falcons the Saints ran the ball 18 times for 95 yards at 5.3 yards per carry. This sounds like we were running it down the Falcons throat. Look a little deeper and you will see that we had 2 carries for 54 yards. We had 10 carries for that went for -1 to +1 yard for a total of 5 yards or .5 yards per play. The other 6 rushes combined for 35 yards. If you are following along, that means about 1 in every 10 runs would go for a first down, 1 in every 3 runs would go for 5 yards and 60% of runs would go for little or no gain. This means if we ran the ball 10 times on first down, then 6 times we would end up with 2nd and 10 at which point it makes running the ball really tough. Then you start putting your offense in obvious passing situations that opens up your QB's to taking hits and sacks behind a makeshift line. Statistically speaking, it becomes extremely difficult to get 3 first downs in a single drive. Odds are you don't a first down on most drives and the rest of the drives you get one first down before punting.

When Teddy was playing we weren't missing 2 starters along the offensive line and a FB that has done a hell of a job opening holes in the running game. Those guys do make a difference.


We had 4 dropped passes that would have gone for more yards and points than the entire running game produced combined. Now just for fun, the 4 passes that were dropped, all 4 were for first downs to sustain drives. 3 of them would have either been for a TD or for 20+ yards. If those balls aren't dropped Brees is 22/30 275 yards and 3-4 TD's. We are up on the Falcons at the end of the 3rd quarter by 30+ points. Is that bad play calling or is it poor execution? The play calling Payton put together had us turn the ball over 0 times with 0 sacks behind a makeshift offensive line.

So my question for you is, if we won that game 41-10 would you have started this thread?

The Panthers game we had the same problems combined with putrid, bias, officiating. If we don't make the drops and the officiating is called equally we beat the Panthers by 30+.

Despite the drops, with Brees at QB we're averaging 3 points per game more than when Bridgewater was at QB.




Want to know how to make the running game better? We have to catch the ball. Our offense is and always has been to use the pass to set up the run. When you pop a couple big plays over the top then defenses have to adjust by pushing safeties back which opens up the running game. When you hit teams over the top it makes the short passing game better because corners are scared to sit on short routes and the safeties can't come flying up to defend short and intermediate routes.


If you do not punish a defense for cheating up they will continue to so making it very difficult to run the ball, particularly when you are missing 3 that are some of your best blockers in the running game. The play calling the last two games was there to punish the defense and make them back off. It was also there to drive a nail in the coffin and finish the game. The execution was in place from the time the ball was snapped to the time the ball hit the receivers hands. Your players have to make plays to succeed.

In ***short***, you run (no pun intended) COMPLEMENTARY football to keep Defenses off-balance - you try to make them THINK, which slows them down as well having them 2nd guessing as to what may be coming next.

And...

you stick with the run for when they do pop and you get those "54 yds on 2 runs".


Being one dimensional with Pass, Pass, Pass only works if you are a clearly dominant team.

[Playing Complementy Football seemed to work outstandingly in 2009!]

 

[VPCajun]

I’m sure Coach Payton will appreciate this advice.

By the way, are we still 10-2 doing things Coach’s way, or are we 5-7?

Just asking for a friend.

Well, doing it OUR WAY, Saints would be 12-0 and...

all of the games would have been blowout wins!

 

[breesgirl]

Remind me: how many points did we put up on the board vs CAR?

You said "we were successful with Bridgewater". What constitutes success? Winning 12-10? Or 13-7? Yeah, that's technically success, just like winning 34-31 is technically success, right? Because as I saw it our offense was far less effective under Brdigewater.

The person you're responding to is 100% correct. Teams know we aren't going deep with it so they're sending 8 people to the line and crashing the safeties. When Bridgewater was in they didn't do that because it was early in the year and it was unknown how Payton would use him. But now we're trying to establish some deep plays to back their secondary off of the line.

But despite this, we're still averaging ~28 pts a game with Brees and the so called pass happy offense. That's good enough to be 5th in the league last I checked. IIRC we were somewhere around 10th in the league in points with Bridgewater.

But yeah, let's go ahead and get stuffed at the line on first and second down by forcing the ball into an 8 man box with safeties below the sticks.

Excellent post. Well stated.

Amnesia really hit this fan base hard since Drew’s return.

I recall people wanting to rush the field because Teddy wouldn’t THROW the ball beyond 15 yards. Folks were bored with the ball control offense and wanted to see passes flying.

Now, here we are 10-2, putting up 28 points per game, but somehow the earlier game plans and scoring 20< is where it’s at. Unbelievable.

I don’t care how we win- ball control or slinging the rock. I just want to win. Period.

 

[WhoDatRVA29]

Line being out has seriously hampered our running game. You don't appreciate how important a good fullback is until he's gone. Really hoping he's back at practice this week and a go on Sunday. I think his absence, more than anything, is the reason we've had the imbalance in our play calling over the past few games. We haven't been able to consistently run the ball between the tackles and when we put Murray back there and try, it's with a stacked box that ends up going for a minimal gain. Then we put Kamara back there to loosen up the box, but once they see it's a run play to the inside, everyone crashes down and the hole is closed before it ever really opened.

Regardless of Line, we need to find a way to successfully run the ball this Sunday and the 49ers wide 9 defense might just give us that opportunity to run successfully up the gut. Getting Kamara in space has always been where he's at his best. HB toss and some counters can also be used against their wide 9 with better chances of success with Kamara running the ball.

Full transparency: what inspired this post goes back beyond this season. Time and time again I see that we establish the run and then abandon it for the passing game. We were up 13-0 against the Rams in the playoffs last year, Ingram was averaging about 7 yards/carry, and we ignored him until the second half. Why not grind the clock down? Why not dominate time of possession?

We agree about this Sunday! Being one-dimensional on Sunday will equal a loss for us.

 

[WhoDatRVA29]

Remind me: how many points did we put up on the board vs CAR?

You said "we were successful with Bridgewater". What constitutes success? Winning 12-10? Or 13-7? Yeah, that's technically success, just like winning 34-31 is technically success, right? Because as I saw it our offense was far less effective under Brdigewater.

The person you're responding to is 100% correct. Teams know we aren't going deep with it so they're sending 8 people to the line and crashing the safeties. When Bridgewater was in they didn't do that because it was early in the year and it was unknown how Payton would use him. But now we're trying to establish some deep plays to back their secondary off of the line.

But despite this, we're still averaging ~28 pts a game with Brees and the so called pass happy offense. That's good enough to be 5th in the league last I checked. IIRC we were somewhere around 10th in the league in points with Bridgewater.

But yeah, let's go ahead and get stuffed at the line on first and second down by forcing the ball into an 8 man box with safeties below the sticks.

Undefeated is what I meant by "successful", to clarify in this instance. Who won the Superbowl just last year? How good is his deep ball? Go look at how many carries they average per game regardless if the run is getting "stuffed." The Saints' formula is great and it's been fun to watch, but I look at the guys who are winning it all and what they do. I think we can be better at their strategy and I've seen us do it.

 

[insidejob]

Full transparency: what inspired this post goes back beyond this season. Time and time again I see that we establish the run and then abandon it for the passing game. We were up 13-0 against the Rams in the playoffs last year, Ingram was averaging about 7 yards/carry, and we ignored him until the second half. Why not grind the clock down? Why not dominate time of possession?

We agree about this Sunday! Being one-dimensional on Sunday will equal a loss for us.

I hear you. At this point in this season, there have been so many drives where we end up with 1st or 2nd and 20 that we end up having to throw the ball. What surprised me was the Carolina game. Murray had like 6 or 7 runs in the first half and got good gains on what seemed like all of them. Then I don't think he touched the ball in the second half. Payton did say at halftime that he was going to get Kamara more involved in the game in the second half (Which he did and was successful), but I don't see why that has to be at the full expense of Murray. Especially on a 4th and one around midfield with just Kamara in the backfield and we go with a halfback dive into a sea of large men and actually lose a couple of yards. (Remember we were up by two touchdowns twice in that game.) I'd think Murray would be the back you run that kind of play with and if you're going to use Kamara, try something off tackle or a halfback toss (or anything to get him into some space really). Have we even seen a backfield with both Murray and Kamara at the same time? If we have, I sure don't remember it. Maybe that's something that's being saved for the playoffs. I really don't know.

 

[ANKOMA33]

So our back LT has the task of matching up with Bosa or is it Ryan R?

I'm not sure of Armstead's availability on Sunday.

 

[WhoDatRVA29]

Excellent post. Well stated.

Amnesia really hit this fan base hard since Drew’s return.

I recall people wanting to rush the field because Teddy wouldn’t THROW the ball beyond 15 yards. Folks were bored with the ball control offense and wanted to see passes flying.

Now, here we are 10-2, putting up 28 points per game, but somehow the earlier game plans and scoring 20< is where it’s at. Unbelievable.

I don’t care how we win- ball control or slinging the rock. I just want to win. Period.

Yes, because we have grown accustomed to seeing the Saints play a certain style and have success. As bored as you may have been, watching our defense play lights-out was not boring to me at all! I completely agree that I want to win...my whole point is that I don't think this strategy is going to win it all for us; it hasn't worked. During our SB run, we made concerted efforts to run with Bush and Thomas; we seem to abandon the run when it's working these days and end up in close games with bad teams. But I get you, a win is a win; I just don't agree with that mindset.

 

[insidejob]

During our SB run, we made concerted efforts to run with Bush and Thomas

Surprisingly, it was Mike Bell who had the most carries in 2009, but your point stands.

ETA: Whether we pass to set up the run (which has been Payton's MO) or run to set up the pass, our offense is much better when we control the TOP which requires a commitment to running the ball. Our defense is also better in that case since they're getting more rest.

 

[WhoDatRVA29]

I would love to see the Saints run the ball more and I am sure Sean Payton would love to as well. However, how many 1 yard runs have we had the last 2-3 games? Teams are loading the box and bringing the safeties up on 1st down, especially if Murray is in the game. The offense has to be patient and take what the defense is giving. If that means audibling to a pass because CGM is man to man then that is what has to be done.

If the box is stacked now, imagined what it looked like for Teddy, as he's not as respected as a passer. Our RBs are that good. Our backup RB from last year is a starter on a team with the league's leading rushing attack.

When the rush isn't working, I got it. My issue is, I see us abandoning the run game when it is working and then relying on the refs to be fair at end, or our kicker to nail the game-winner, or the other team to make a mistake; I don't think it has to be that way.

 

[SoggyBottomBoy]

Yes, because we have grown accustomed to seeing the Saints play a certain style and have success. As bored as you may have been, watching our defense play lights-out was not boring to me at all! I completely agree that I want to win...my whole point is that I don't think this strategy is going to win it all for us; it hasn't worked. During our SB run, we made concerted efforts to run with Bush and Thomas; we seem to abandon the run when it's working these days and end up in close games with bad teams. But I get you, a win is a win; I just don't agree with that mindset.

I think what you keep missing and the point of bclemms posts is that it is not a simple evaluation from gleaning over final game stats. In 2009 final stats show that we were more balanced. If you watch the games or look at the play-by-play charts you'll also see that big rushing numbers were put up near the end of games that we were well ahead. It is not a simple formula. At the moment, we don't have a grind it out run game that will sustain drives.

 

[WhoDatRVA29]

The drive chart for the 2nd half of that game was like this.
Touchdown
Touchdown
Punt (Punt as a result of a dropped TD)
Interception (ran on 1st setting up 2nd and 10, then missed communication between Brees and Ginn deep to set up 3rd and long where Interception occurred)
Downs (ran the ball on 4th down and lost yardage) Should have never been in that position because just before the 4th down we had another TD dropped in the end zone.
FG to win the game

So we scored 17 points in the second half despite 2 dropped TD's on drives that resulted in no points. If those two balls are caught we score 31 points in 2nd half or 8 more points than NFL teams average in a full game. If we catch that first TD instead of dropping it then we go up

Again though, look at the personnel groupings. Armstead goes down 6 minutes into the 3rd quarter. Murray had 6 carries at that point. After Armstead goes down and he had 1 carry the rest of the game.

You're right! So we took the ball out of Murray's hands (doing his job) and gave it to the guy with no hands (Ginn); I don't like that strategy. We're a winning football team, but I think we can be better that's all. Payton is GREAT, Brees is GREAT, but I can still see things I don't like and point it out...

 

[insidejob]

At the moment, we don't have a grind it out run game that will sustain drives.

At the moment, we really don't. Missing Armstead, Peat and Line (the three most important components of our running game besides whoever is carrying the ball) makes ground and pound, running the ball and controlling the clock kinda impossible. When TB started those 5 games in Drew's absence, we were much more balanced and were close to tops in the league in TOP, but injuries have made that a much more difficult thing to accomplish as of today. I'm really hoping to see Line's name missing from the injury report today. Getting him back will make those short yardage situations much less stressful at least, IMO.