The strategy for the Saints every week should be the same: Run the Ball, stop the run...Coach Payton!!! (1 Viewer)

[WhoDatRVA29]

Why change an overall philosophy that has resulted in the most consistently productive offense this league has ever seen? It has always been a pass-centric offense. Always. It has never been a "power running" offense. And would be greatly diminished by trying to fit that type of gameplan into the current scheme and roster, especially midseason.

Drew is 40, reason 1. A lesser passer, Teddy Bridgewater, has a better record than Drew Brees playing for the same team. I think this is because we changed the game plan. We shouldn't be asking Drew to throw 40+ times a game when doesn't have to...he's 40 years old.

 

[WhoDatRVA29]

I hear you. At this point in this season, there have been so many drives where we end up with 1st or 2nd and 20 that we end up having to throw the ball. What surprised me was the Carolina game. Murray had like 6 or 7 runs in the first half and got good gains on what seemed like all of them. Then I don't think he touched the ball in the second half. Payton did say at halftime that he was going to get Kamara more involved in the game in the second half (Which he did and was successful), but I don't see why that has to be at the full expense of Murray. Especially on a 4th and one around midfield with just Kamara in the backfield and we go with a halfback dive into a sea of large men and actually lose a couple of yards. (Remember we were up by two touchdowns twice in that game.) I'd think Murray would be the back you run that kind of play with and if you're going to use Kamara, try something off tackle or a halfback toss (or anything to get him into some space really). Have we even seen a backfield with both Murray and Kamara at the same time? If we have, I sure don't remember it. Maybe that's something that's being saved for the playoffs. I really don't know.

You understand me!!! In retrospect, we won; that's great! But ignoring a guy with a hot-hand doesn't make sense to me.

 

[insidejob]

Drew is 40, reason 1. A lesser passer, Teddy Bridgewater, has a better record than Drew Brees playing for the same team. I think this is because we changed the game plan. We shouldn't be asking Drew to throw 40+ times a game when doesn't have to...he's 40 years old.

You also have to consider that Drew himself could very well be responsible for a lot of the passing plays. 9 times out of 10, if he sees a mismatch pre-snap, he'll check out of a running play and go with the mismatch passing play. It's who he is and always will be. And it usually works. I'd say always works - when our receivers catch balls that him them right in the hands.

 

[WhoDatRVA29]

Surprisingly, it was Mike Bell who had the most carries in 2009, but your point stands.

ETA: Whether we pass to set up the run (which has been Payton's MO) or run to set up the pass, our offense is much better when we control the TOP which requires a commitment to running the ball. Our defense is also better in that case since they're getting more rest.

Ah yes, Mike Bell!!! We've always kept a strong backfield lol

I agree with you 100%. Drew is past his prime and I'd like to balance the offense and save him as a weapon for the playoffs; I'm clearly alone in that lol

 

[WhoDatRVA29]

I think what you keep missing and the point of bclemms posts is that it is not a simple evaluation from gleaning over final game stats. In 2009 final stats show that we were more balanced. If you watch the games or look at the play-by-play charts you'll also see that big rushing numbers were put up near the end of games that we were well ahead. It is not a simple formula. At the moment, we don't have a grind it out run game that will sustain drives.

We can't be watching the same games then. I've watched games where Murray got 20+ carries and we controlled the clock and the defense thanked the offense for it. Nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree.

 

[VPCajun]

... , and let the weak unfold as it should.


...

Great way to describe the Whiners! ;-)

lol

 

[insidejob]

Ah yes, Mike Bell!!! We've always kept a strong backfield lol

I agree with you 100%. Drew is past his prime and I'd like to balance the offense and save him as a weapon for the playoffs; I'm clearly alone in that lol

There's no denying that the offense is 10 x's more productive with Drew than it was with TB under center. And that's because of his passing ability. I'm all for feeding the guy with a hot hand and trying to be as balanced as possible, but the fact of the matter is, this is the Sean Payton and Drew Brees show regardless of Drew being past his prime (which is still an elite quarterback).

I get what you're saying. I really do. We're just not well equipped right now to run the ball with the injuries on the line and to Line. If these injuries had occurred before TB took over while Drew was out, I doubt we'd have gone undefeated in that stretch.

And Mike Bell got the most carries because he was playing mop up duty at the end of games killing the clock after we'd hang 40 on a team throwing the ball.

 

[crosswatt]

Drew is 40, reason 1. A lesser passer, Teddy Bridgewater, has a better record than Drew Brees playing for the same team. I think this is because we changed the game plan. We shouldn't be asking Drew to throw 40+ times a game when doesn't have to...he's 40 years old.

No one changed the game plan.
Drew has just as many wins as Bridgewater did when he was starting. Brees has lost one game, and the Rams loss was more Teddy, but the shock factor really derailed that one, so I don't mean that at all blameworthy.

Bridgewater averaged 32.5 attempts per game (6 games) and Brees is averaging 34.2 (7 games).

Kamara has averaged 10.4 carries during Brees' games, and 15 during Bridgewater's. Murray has averaged 8.8 during Drew's starts and 9.6 in Teddy's. (The numbers were 13 and 5 respectively in L.A. I didn't include that as it wouldn't fit in either quarterback's category. But mention it for posterity.)

So, the "changed game plan" resulted in a 5.4 difference in rushing attempts and a 1.7 split in passing attempts. Not really seeing any shift in philosophy here.

 

[WhoDatRVA29]

At the moment, we really don't. Missing Armstead, Peat and Line (the three most important components of our running game besides whoever is carrying the ball) makes ground and pound, running the ball and controlling the clock kinda impossible. When TB started those 5 games in Drew's absence, we were much more balanced and were close to tops in the league in TOP, but injuries have made that a much more difficult thing to accomplish as of today. I'm really hoping to see Line's name missing from the injury report today. Getting him back will make those short yardage situations much less stressful at least, IMO.

You also have to consider that Drew himself could very well be responsible for a lot of the passing plays. 9 times out of 10, if he sees a mismatch pre-snap, he'll check out of a running play and go with the mismatch passing play. It's who he is and always will be. And it usually works. I'd say always works - when our receivers catch balls that him them right in the hands.

You're right my man. I think that may be one of the reasons we'll never transition to be more balanced. Drew and I believe he can make every throw, but we have two good receivers in Thomas and Kamara. This isn't 2009 anymore: Colston, Henderson, Meachem, Moore, Shockey; you can be pass-first with that list lol

 

[WhoDatRVA29]

There's no denying that the offense is 10 x's more productive with Drew than it was with TB under center. And that's because of his passing ability. I'm all for feeding the guy with a hot hand and trying to be as balanced as possible, but the fact of the matter is, this is the Sean Payton and Drew Brees show regardless of Drew being past his prime (which is still an elite quarterback).

I get what you're saying. I really do. We're just not well equipped right now to run the ball with the injuries on the line and to Line. If these injuries had occurred before TB took over while Drew was out, I doubt we'd have gone undefeated in that stretch.

And Mike Bell got the most carries because he was playing mop up duty at the end of games killing the clock after we'd hang 40 on a team throwing the ball.

Oh, I know it's not going to change; hence my frustration. The offense may seem better against the Panthers, Falcons, Cardinals, and Buccs...those probably aren't going to be our opponents in the playoffs. We're short-handed this Sunday, but hopefully we can figure something out.

 

[WhoDatRVA29]

No one changed the game plan.
Drew has just as many wins as Bridgewater did when he was starting. Brees has lost one game, and the Rams loss was more Teddy, but the shock factor really derailed that one, so I don't mean that at all blameworthy.

Bridgewater averaged 32.5 attempts per game (6 games) and Brees is averaging 34.2 (7 games).

Kamara has averaged 10.4 carries during Brees' games, and 15 during Bridgewater's. Murray has averaged 8.8 during Drew's starts and 9.6 in Teddy's. (The numbers were 13 and 5 respectively in L.A. I didn't include that as it wouldn't fit in either quarterback's category. But mention it for posterity.)

So, the "changed game plan" resulted in a 5.4 difference in rushing attempts and a 1.7 split in passing attempts. Not really seeing any shift in philosophy here.

These are just stats with no context; the flow and events of each game matters. Murray had 2 games where he got over 20 attempts with Teddy starting; we won both games. You don't see RBs get these opportunities with Brees. Look at the ONE game Brees lost (start to finish) and look at the disparity between the run and pass; it's glaring. Then, look at the Falcons' balance that same game...clear pattern there.

 

[insidejob]

These are just stats with no context; the flow and events of each game matters. Murray had 2 games where he got over 20 attempts with Teddy starting; we won both games. You don't see RBs get these opportunities with Brees. Look at the ONE game Brees lost (start to finish) and look at the disparity between the run and pass; it's glaring. Then, look at the Falcons' balance that same game...clear pattern there.

You can't look at that game and expect it to be balanced. We were playing from behind the whole game and couldn't get into the end zone. Of course it's going to be lopsided towards the pass. That hasn't been the case in any game besides that one game. And Drew also got sacked 6 times in that game. We just couldn't do anything right in that game and having more rushing attempts wouldn't have changed a thing.

 

[crosswatt]

These are just stats with no context; the flow and events of each game matters. Murray had 2 games where he got over 20 attempts with Teddy starting; we won both games. You don't see RBs get these opportunities with Brees. Look at the ONE game Brees lost (start to finish) and look at the disparity between the run and pass; it's glaring. Then, look at the Falcons' balance that same game...clear pattern there.

You're incorrect. Murray had one game with 27 carries against Chicago with Brifgewater starting, then had one game with 21 carries against Arizona with Brees starting. And you've completely lost me if you're advocating that the Saints emulate the Falcons' legendary offensive production this year.

 

[Bill]

Frankly, I have absolutely no problem with the ratio of passing plays versus running plays the Saints employ. I think that Payton calls 'em as he sees 'em. We have had a changing of the guard on the offensive line recently and the play calling will have to be adjusted accordingly. We cannot just say that we need "X-percentage" of running plays to be successful.

In fact, I was very impressed with how Drew Brees mentioned how he needed to adjust the "clock in his head" in the last Atlanta game to help take some of the pressure off of the new guys on the offensive line. That is a brilliant example of how well this team adjusts for the personnel that we have available! Payton & Brees work well together in making such adjustments.

Seriously, I'm all for a balanced attack. When it's working, running the football the majority of the time really does open up the passing game. Of course the same can be said in reverse. But the thing is, if the passing game is working well in a particular game, it can be really hard to go back to running the football unless you have a lead late in a game and are concentrating on running out the clock as well.

Sean knows what works best for his team. And though he does seem to give up on the run quickly sometimes, I think it is because he sees breakdowns with certain players and/or schemes that doesn't seem to be working against some of the competition we've had to face. As long as his ratio keep leading us to victories, I'm the last guy who is going to complain.

 

[WhoDatRVA29]

You're incorrect. Murray had one game with 27 carries against Chicago with Brifgewater starting, then had one game with 21 carries against Arizona with Brees starting. And you've completely lost me if you're advocating that the Saints emulate the Falcons' legendary offensive production this year.

I stand corrected Brees started that game, but that doesn't change the point; we win with that strategy. "Falcons' balance that same game": what does that have to do with the production for the year? I'm trying to find specific examples to illustrate the point. I'm not praising the Falcons or trashing the Saints, just want us to use all we have to beat the good teams.