My annual Memorial Day thread (1 Viewer)

[saintmdterps]

Buddhist prayer
May all beings be happy, content, and fulfilled
May all beings be healed and whole
May all beings have whatever they want and need
May all beings be protected from harm and free from fear
May all beings enjoy inner peace and ease
May all beings be awakened, liberated, and free

Repeat the lines and insert “May those close to me...” and then with “May I be....”

Close with “May there be peace in this world. May there be peace throughout the entire universe”

—Lama Surya Das

 

[MTDB1983]

For the record, there is absolutely zero independent corroboration of the New Testament outside of the New Testament. Zero. There is absolutely zero contemporary evidence, and while the hypothesis of "oral history" is often appealed to, there is zero evidence of that either. Not to mention that a lot if not most of it is known to be forged (i.e. half of Paul's letters are known forgeries from the second century, and most of the other epistles aren't believed to have been written by whom they claim to be).

From the authentic* letters of Paul, which predated the Gospels by a generation (*assuming they weren't 2nd century forgeries themselves, as suspected by the "Dutch Radicals"):

Corinthians 1:22 - "Jews demand signs and Greeks search for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles"

Doesn't seem like the miracles and wisdom of that Jesus guy made too much of an impression, right?

Also consider the "Corithian Creed," 1 Corithians 15:

"...for I delivered to you first, what also I did receive, that Christ died for our sins, according to the Writings, and that he was buried, and that he hath risen on the third day, according to the Writings, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve, afterwards he appeared to above five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain till now, and certain also did fall asleep; afterwards he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. And last of all -- as to the untimely birth -- he appeared also to me..."

Compare that sequence with anything in the Gospels and you'll see they don't match too well. Why is that the case, if "oral history" was so strong?

With all due respect, you are categorically and unequivocally wrong. Just wrong. Period, plain and simple. There is literally not one single thing you wrote that was true.

 

[MTDB1983]

The saddest part about this thread is that Marsha started it to speak about the power of prayer and whether or not people engage in it when they promise to.

For several pages people were happy to be positive and lend their ideas and opinions about that topic.

And now we have people coming out of the woodwork to proclaim that, essentially, those who pray are talking to the air. It’s a sad thing to try and convince others that aren’t shoving their beliefs down your throat that their isn’t a God. It’s plain cruel and it’s hypocritical.

 

[Booker]

With all due respect, you are categorically and unequivocally wrong. Just wrong. Period, plain and simple. There is literally not one single thing you wrote that was true.

I'm gonna have to disagree. If you would like to provide evidence of independent corroboration of the New Testament I'd love to see it.

I mean, if anything, we should have corroboration of all the earthquakes and the three hours of darkness across all the land or the dead people that came back to life, right? That's kind of hard to miss. Or how about something more mundane, such as the Temple cleansing? The Temple was only like 12 acres large, with armed guards -- surely someone would have noticed and written about that time a band of zealots chased out the money changers, right? Nope, no record of that, either.

Otherwise, I don't have anything to say about prayer (which is why I hadn't participated in this thread -- I just couldn't help myself when I saw assertions that the bible is historically accurate), so I will happily get back to my work.

 

[Madmarsha]

The saddest part about this thread is that Marsha started it to speak about the power of prayer and whether or not people engage in it when they promise to.

For several pages people were happy to be positive and lend their ideas and opinions about that topic.

And now we have people coming out of the woodwork to proclaim that, essentially, those who pray are talking to the air. It’s a sad thing to try and convince others that aren’t shoving their beliefs down your throat that their isn’t a God. It’s plain cruel and it’s hypocritical.

It's okay, honey. I don't mind the discourse. I don't know why it is in our nature to try to persuade others to our way of thinking but it is. So I don't like that aspect of it -- it's okay to get things go -- but I like the lively discussion.

 

[MTDB1983]

I'm gonna have to disagree. If you would like to provide evidence of independent corroboration of the New Testament I'd love to see it.

I mean, if anything, we should have corroboration of all the earthquakes and the three hours of darkness across all the land or the dead people that came back to life, right? That's kind of hard to miss. Or how about something more mundane, such as the Temple cleansing? The Temple was only like 12 acres large, with armed guards -- surely someone would have noticed and written about that time a band of zealots chased out the money changers, right? Nope, no record of that, either.

Otherwise, I don't have anything to say about prayer (which is why I hadn't participated in this thread -- I just couldn't help myself when I saw assertions that the bible is historically accurate), so I will happily get back to my work.

One small example of the many: The Roman Historian, Tacitus, himself corroborated the story of the “sun going dark” that the NT references when Christ was crucified.

Trust- I am not spending all the time addressing each issue that has been brought to me, not because I don’t have evidence, but because I don’t have the time. I’m also sure that no evidence I would give would be good enough or mind-changing. It’s the whole Pearls to Swine argument.

 

[Booker]

One small example of the many: The Roman Historian, Tacitus, himself corroborated the story of the “sun going dark” that the NT references when Christ was crucified.

Trust- I am not spending all the time addressing each issue that has been brought to me, not because I don’t have evidence, but because I don’t have the time. I’m also sure that no evidence I would give would be good enough or mind-changing. It’s the whole Pearls to Swine argument.

Tacitus doesn't say anything about "the sun going dark." In fact, he doesn't say anything about the alleged time of Jesus that we have record of because his book covering that period (should have been book five of the 16 in his Annals) was not retained (kind of odd, considering Catholic authorities ultimately decided what would and would not be retained).

You may be thinking of Thallus, who supposedly recorded that there was an eclipse sometime in the first century (I don't think any of his writings survived) and in the third century a Christian apologist connected it to the crucifixion. There was an eclipse last year -- just because one was recorded in the first century hardly corroborates the New Testament.

Back to Tacitus. His famous line, writing around 115 AD/CE (again, not a contemporary witness) follows:

Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind.

So he's just basically parroting Christian belief in the early second century -- again, no corroboration. And the fact he references "Christus," a title, as opposed to "Jesus of Nazareth" suggests his knowledge of Christianity is coming from Christian hearsay and not from any lost crucifixion records.

 

[Bill]

I have enjoyed reading the diverse comments in this thread, though from the beginning I knew it had no chance of altering anyone's stance no matter what was presented or stated.

I certainly admire the intelligence of the members who frequent these boards. Folks like System & Guido are two of my favorite posters... particularly on the sports side of these message boards. But I also understood the moment I opened and looked into Madmarsha's thread that thoughts (with backing) would be provided by these knowledgeable men without wavering. But I truly don't believe that the purpose of anyone who decided to post their personal thoughts here was trying to convert, convince, or sway the thinking of others. I see it as an attempt to legitimize/validate their own personal view. (But I could be wrong on this one)

However, there is one bit of common ground that everyone here must accept no matter what their personal concept of our existence may be. Reason dictates that something had to have always existed. Whether a person favors the idea of a divine being/creator or if their leaning is one of having the building blocks/elements simply assembling themselves in the right order over eons of time... something cannot come out of nothing.

There are some things that simply cannot be explained by known logic, math, physics, or reason. I watched a TV show just the other day where scientists discussed how the formulas for the 'Big Bang' cannot be understood or rectified with any type of known physics equation. Thus we accept some things as reality even though they defy human logic. For example the universe is said to be expanding into an infinite void. How can any human understand or explain infinity in every direction? It's probably about as easy (or hard, depending on how you look at it) to explain as someone who trusts that there is an all knowing, all powerful spirit being that has always existed to eventually have assembled the physical universe together as we know it... even if we don't understand everything.

A very logical & reasoning man once said, "Of course every house is constructed by someone". That eloquent line is the basis for the logic that I use for my own personal conclusion to our existence. Were any of us to happen upon a beautiful, full featured house in the middle of a vast wasteland, it would be hard to imagine that anyone here would exclaim, "Look what just sprang up right here all on it's own!"

Just as surely as something as complex as a house could not be credited with providing it's own existence, there are things that very learned men (and women) in the scientific community study each day that are far more complex in their makeup than any house that has ever been designed & constructed. In fact the argument for intelligent design has affected many scientists who carefully study the natural world.

Since I began this post with the logic that something has always had to be around in some form for there to be all the things that we see before us today... including ourselves... then it is simply a matter of who or what 'constructed' us. If it is not possible for someone to accept something that they cannot understand, then infinity does not exist. But if we personally feel it is logical to conclude that complexity & order is only possible through intelligent design, then it is easy (or perhaps easier) to accept the concept that a really smart designer is behind it all.

Thus the complexity & balance of practically everything in the physical universe around us does one of two things to most people who attempts to logically contemplate their existence. They either choose to give credit to a 'not-yet-fully-understood' divine creator, or they are forced to credit chance for all the complex wonders of the physical universe.

To me, it's much more logical and reasonable to believe that someone actually built this complex & beautiful house.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

Buddhist prayer
May all beings be happy, content, and fulfilled
May all beings be healed and whole
May all beings have whatever they want and need
May all beings be protected from harm and free from fear
May all beings enjoy inner peace and ease
May all beings be awakened, liberated, and free

Repeat the lines and insert “May those close to me...” and then with “May I be....”

Close with “May there be peace in this world. May there be peace throughout the entire universe”

—Lama Surya Das

don't tell me what to do

 

[saintmdterps]

don't tell me what to do

You may choose none of those things

 

[MTDB1983]

I have enjoyed reading the diverse comments in this thread, though from the beginning I knew it had no chance of altering anyone's stance no matter what was presented or stated.

I certainly admire the intelligence of the members who frequent these boards. Folks like System & Guido are two of my favorite posters... particularly on the sports side of these message boards. But I also understood the moment I opened and looked into Madmarsha's thread that thoughts (with backing) would be provided by these knowledgeable men without wavering. But I truly don't believe that the purpose of anyone who decided to post their personal thoughts here was to trying to convert, convince, or sway the thinking of others. I see it as an attempt to legitimize/validate their own personal view. (But I could be wrong on this one)

However, there is one bit of common ground that everyone here must accept no matter what their personal concept of our existence may be. Reason dictates that something had to have always existed. Whether a person favors the idea of a divine being/creator or if their leaning in one of having the building blocks/elements simply assembling themselves in the right order over eons of time... something cannot come out of nothing.

There are some things that simply cannot be explained by known logic, math, physics, or reason. I watch a TV show just the other day where scientists discussed how the formulas for the 'Big Bang' cannot be understood or rectified with any type of known physics equation. Thus we accept some things as reality even though they defy human logic. For example the universe is said to be expanding into an infinite void. How can any human understand or explain infinity in every direction? It's probably about as easy (or hard, depending on how you look at it) to explain as someone who trusts that there is an all knowing, all powerful spirit being that has always existed to eventually have assembled the physical universe together as we know it... even if we don't understand everything.

A very logical & reasoning man once said, "Of course every house is constructed by someone". That eloquent line is the basis for the logic that I use for my own personal conclusion to our existence. Were any of us to happen upon a beautiful, full featured house in the middle of a vast wasteland, it would be hard to imagine that anyone here would exclaim, "Look what just sprang up right here all on it's own!"

Just as surely as something as complex as a house could not be credited with providing it's own existence, there are things that very learned men (and women) in the scientific community study each day that are far more complex in their makeup than any house that has ever been designed & constructed. In fact the argument for intelligent design has affected many scientists who carefully study the natural world.

Since I began this post with the logic that something has always had to be around in some form for there to be all the things that we see before us today... including ourselves... then it is simply a matter of who or what 'constructed' us. If it is not possible for someone to accept something that they cannot understand, then infinity does not exist. But if we personally feel it is logical to conclude that complexity & order is only possible through intelligent design, then it is easy (or perhaps easier) to accept the concept that a really smart designer is behind it all.

Thus the complexity & balance of practically everything in the physical universe around us does one of two things to most people who attempts to logically contemplate their existence. They either choose to give credit to a 'not-yet-fully-understood' divine creator, or they are forced to credit chance for all the complex wonders of the physical universe.

To me, it's much more logical and reasonable to believe that someone actually built this complex & beautiful house.

And this is why I have said countless times on this thread that it is the height of human arrogance to believe something can’t exist just because you can’t understand it. We are so limited in our capacity to understand much beyond the construct of our life that it’s rather ridiculous to believe that one of the youngest human beings in an ancient universe must hold the logical standard to which all that exists must be held to.

And systemshock kept saying that it’s a bad argument to say “well you just don’t understand it”. But I’m not here to win any debate. It’s a fact that we don’t understand God. It’s a fact that it’s arrogant to disbelieve something because it doesn’t fit within your logic. If that hurts your feelings then I’m sorry.

 

[saintmdterps]

I’ll just remain comfortably agnostic. I do pray, I do believe my prayers are heard by the Universe and even answered, though many times in a way I had not foreseen.

 

[SystemShock]

Just as surely as something as complex as a house could not be credited with providing it's own existence, there are things that very learned men (and women) in the scientific community study each day that are far more complex in their makeup than any house that has ever been designed & constructed. In fact the argument for intelligent design has affected many scientists who carefully study the natural world.

Just wanted to point out, that's the watchmaker argument - complexity necessitates a creator - but I have never heard it with a house

The argument for intelligent design only affects those who want it to be true.

 

[Bill]

Just wanted to point out, that's the watchmaker argument - complexity necessitates a creator - but I have never heard it with a house

The argument for intelligent design only affects those who want it to be true.

I simply don't see it as being reasonable that all the parts needed to make a house would know where to fit without help in order to turn into a house. That is unless each part had it's own intelligence to do so.

But there's no doubt that some in the scientific community not only see it as plausible, but factual.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

I have enjoyed reading the diverse comments in this thread, though from the beginning I knew it had no chance of altering anyone's stance no matter what was presented or stated.

I certainly admire the intelligence of the members who frequent these boards. Folks like System & Guido are two of my favorite posters... particularly on the sports side of these message boards. But I also understood the moment I opened and looked into Madmarsha's thread that thoughts (with backing) would be provided by these knowledgeable men without wavering. But I truly don't believe that the purpose of anyone who decided to post their personal thoughts here was trying to convert, convince, or sway the thinking of others. I see it as an attempt to legitimize/validate their own personal view. (But I could be wrong on this one)

However, there is one bit of common ground that everyone here must accept no matter what their personal concept of our existence may be. Reason dictates that something had to have always existed. Whether a person favors the idea of a divine being/creator or if their leaning is one of having the building blocks/elements simply assembling themselves in the right order over eons of time... something cannot come out of nothing.

There are some things that simply cannot be explained by known logic, math, physics, or reason. I watched a TV show just the other day where scientists discussed how the formulas for the 'Big Bang' cannot be understood or rectified with any type of known physics equation. Thus we accept some things as reality even though they defy human logic. For example the universe is said to be expanding into an infinite void. How can any human understand or explain infinity in every direction? It's probably about as easy (or hard, depending on how you look at it) to explain as someone who trusts that there is an all knowing, all powerful spirit being that has always existed to eventually have assembled the physical universe together as we know it... even if we don't understand everything.

A very logical & reasoning man once said, "Of course every house is constructed by someone". That eloquent line is the basis for the logic that I use for my own personal conclusion to our existence. Were any of us to happen upon a beautiful, full featured house in the middle of a vast wasteland, it would be hard to imagine that anyone here would exclaim, "Look what just sprang up right here all on it's own!"

Just as surely as something as complex as a house could not be credited with providing it's own existence, there are things that very learned men (and women) in the scientific community study each day that are far more complex in their makeup than any house that has ever been designed & constructed. In fact the argument for intelligent design has affected many scientists who carefully study the natural world.

Since I began this post with the logic that something has always had to be around in some form for there to be all the things that we see before us today... including ourselves... then it is simply a matter of who or what 'constructed' us. If it is not possible for someone to accept something that they cannot understand, then infinity does not exist. But if we personally feel it is logical to conclude that complexity & order is only possible through intelligent design, then it is easy (or perhaps easier) to accept the concept that a really smart designer is behind it all.

Thus the complexity & balance of practically everything in the physical universe around us does one of two things to most people who attempts to logically contemplate their existence. They either choose to give credit to a 'not-yet-fully-understood' divine creator, or they are forced to credit chance for all the complex wonders of the physical universe.

To me, it's much more logical and reasonable to believe that someone actually built this complex & beautiful house.

a fully grown human is way more complex than a house - 2 dinky little cells got together and made that human
seeing that most every life form starts from a much simpler form actually seems to complicate the notion of an architect
also the expansion of the universe is observable and scientifically verifiable - if it's expanding then most like it started smaller - -much smaller (it's not that difficult to "prove" or "refute" just about anything if you ask the question the right way