TMZ Reports.. Kobe Bryant Killed In Crash!!! RIP KOBE! May god watch over your family! You and Gigi will always be loved! (1 Viewer)

[Bill]

The last aircraft I flew had digital instruments. I doubt they would display more than 4 digits for vertical speed but once you hit 9999 who cares?

Any aircraft descending at 4000 fpm 1200 feet above terrain is in serious trouble outside of an airshow or air combat. No one will be looking at the VSI at that point in any case.

Hoover was talented. I used to know a lot of WWII aviators. Death did not frighten them. That says a lot about what they did.

You're so right. If your vertical speed exceeds four digits, you've got bigger problems than the VSI that you use. So my friend, please keep everything in the green and under control. I was once reminded how there are steadily declining numbers of pilots with fewer numbers of student pilots each years. Yet with all the associated costs of learning to fly, that's quite understandable. When I first started flying, rental costs for a Cessna 150 (at Lakefront Airport in New Orleans) was $16 per hour 'wet rate'. That same airplane today is $48 per hour. It's insane to think that a young kid who's interested in flying would be able to pay for his own flight training as I did. And the whopping cost is the reason fewer FBO have flight training or rental aircraft. It's really sad.

But as you mentioned, it seems like almost every new aircraft from homebuilts to airliners has a 'glass' panel these days. I would guess that all the newest planes in your fleet have these as well and provide most of the flight data information you need on a typical flight. If I ever get to build that Van's RV aircraft I've always wanted, I'm certain I will go that route myself.

And there's no reason to think that Kobe's S-76 pilot would have been focused on his VSI anyway. Maintaining his altitude & attitude would/should have been his priority in the moments before the crash. And for some reason yet to be determined, it appears that he failed at both.

 

[saint_drago]

I'd just like to thank Bill and the rest of you folks who know a thing or two about flying. Your posts have been very educational and you've helped this crash make sense to me.

We have so many gifted people on this site who have different areas or expertise. You name it and someone around here knows enough about it to educate the rest of us. Anyway, thanks for your time and information.

 

[Bill]

I'd just like to thank Bill and the rest of you folks who know a thing or two about flying. Your posts have been very educational and you've helped this crash make sense to me.

We have so many gifted people on this site who have different areas or expertise. You name it and someone around here knows enough about it to educate the rest of us. Anyway, thanks for your time and information.

You're very welcome.
I always enjoy the help I get from the knowledge of others as well.

 

[LuvNOLA]

The last aircraft I flew had digital instruments. I doubt they would display more than 4 digits for vertical speed but once you hit 9999 who cares?

Any aircraft descending at 4000 fpm 1200 feet above terrain is in serious trouble outside of an airshow or air combat. No one will be looking at the VSI at that point in any case.

Hoover was talented. I used to know a lot of WWII aviators. Death did not frighten them. That says a lot about what they did.

You’ve got that right! When I saw the new movie, Midway, those WW2 pilots were MANIACS!!! It was unbelievable how brave they were. The movie made you fall in love with America all over again. Those pilots made Tom Cruise & Top Gun seem like entitled wimps.

 

[ArchiesGhost]

You’ve got that right! When I saw the new movie, Midway, those WW2 pilots were MANIACS!!! It was unbelievable how brave they were. The movie made you fall in love with America all over again. Those pilots made Tom Cruise & Top Gun seem like entitled wimps.

I haven't seen the new movie but I am very familiar with the battle.

Torpedo Squadron 8 is an incredible story. If one had to pick a key moment in the war against Japan, Torpedo 8 sacrificing themselves to draw the Japanese fighters down would be the moment that turned the tide.

I have spent a lot of time reading naval history, particularly the United States Navy in WWII.

Literally thousands of heart breaking tales, stories of incredible courage and an awful lot of perspective.

 

[hankster2]

Having been a victim of spatial disorientation for a few brief moments in a night flight over Lake Pontchartrain many years ago, I can tell you from experience how strange the feeling is... and also how life-threatening it quickly becomes. I was flying NNW on a direct flight from MSY to Hammond. There was a solid overcast 1200' ceiling that was lowering that evening, but was clear below the cloud layer. Once my route took me over the lake, it was as if I was flying over a black hole with only the lights of Kenner behind me to give me a sense of up or down.

Hence I was determined to focus heavily on what my instruments were indicating regarding the attitude of my airplane and making sure I did not climb into the dense ceiling of clouds just above me. But it only took the brief distraction of reaching down to my radio microphone to acknowledge the radio instructions from the departure controller to begin a slow roll to the left.

Before I realized it, my aircraft was literally in a 90° left bank with the nose pitched downward approximately 20°. My first clue that I was no longer flying straight and level was when I saw some very distant car headlights that were traveling south on Interstate 55. I thought the lights were faint stars because I was looking at them through the top center of the windscreen! But I knew that couldn't be correct because the clouds would have been obscuring them. And then almost immediately the sound of the increasing whine of the engine as the RPMs began to rapidly increase. I knew I was starting to dive.

My eyes quickly focused on the attitude indicator (HSI) first. It told me that I was now flying in a sharp & descending left bank. However, my head was still telling me that I was flying straight & level. But my instructor always told me that in these situations a pilot should trust his instruments before his 'head'. I took the correct action of leveling the wings first before trying to correct the shallow dive. Had I allowed the now-screaming engine cause me to pull back the yoke first, I would only have tightened the turn and spun into the lake, which was now only about 800' below me.

Once I rolled the wings back to level, I had to fight the mental signals which were trying to tell me that I was over-correcting into a sharp right bank, even though the HSI now showed that my wings were level. I then began to pull back on the yoke to stop the descent and climb back to my original altitude. Yes, the sensation of all my guts moving into my britches during that maneuver only added to the confusion my head was feeling. But keep in mind that the entire description of what you just read happened in a span of time that was about 100 times less than what it took for me to type this out!

The gist of my experience is that spatial disorientation happens so quickly in zero visibility that any momentary distraction or lack of attention to what the flight instruments were indicating could have made that S-76 pilot believe he was doing the right things all the way until just before his rotor blades struck the ground. Since the latest reports coming out are that he flew out of the clouds in a diving left bank, it really hit home with the experience that I described above as I recognized both then & now how close I came to becoming a statistic of spatial disorientation.

To further Bill's point of disorientation: Without the ability to see the ground or horizon (visual reference), the natural state is disorientation (incorrect-orientation might be more accurate). A common exercise to demonstrate this for student pilots is for the instructor to have the pilot close his eyes and keep the plane straight and level by "feel". After 10 seconds the pilot is told to open his eyes and he finds that he's in an extreme bank plummeting towards the earth (the so called death-spiral). This is generally the "natural" state of flight when you can't see outside because the Eustachian tubes in the ears are picking up all sorts of unnatural accelerations which give incorrect information about where "up" is.

It's not an instantaneous transition going from the VFR (looking outside) thought process to an IFR scan. At its core the IFR scan is scanning 6 gauges (which may or may not be combined on composite displays): airspeed, attitude, direction (DG or HSI), altitude, vertical speed, turn coordinator. It's a ballet and takes recent practice to do competently which is why there are IFR currency requirements and why most pilots who fly IFR take time to practice their "scan" even when not flying IFR. It's also hard because these gauges are telling you one thing and your brain is often telling you that the gauges are WRONG. Combine that with knowing that you have to account for terrain avoidance and make an aeronautical decision on the route of the flight as you are now illegal flying SVFR into instrument conditions (this is an assumption).... for a single pilot in a fairly complex aircraft this can lead to task saturation which would help hasten the onset of disorientation.

Bill's point about reaching for the mic is spot-on. All it takes is a momentary distraction (and flying is just a lot of distractions) and your "gut" takes over flying the plane. While most of us can look down and change the radio station in our car without departing a lane of traffic, we aren't equipped to do the same in an aircraft, and there's far more maps and radio stations to pay attention to. Once the aircraft departs straight-and-level to a significant degree (for example - a steep descending turn to the left), it can take seconds to scan the instruments and determine which way you're pointed. If he was SVFR into IMC then he'd be dealing with an increased workload in trying to determine his next course of action and therefore more distractions.

 

[hankster2]

The other question is why they didn't just file IFR. The only things I can think of is:
1. They wanted to sightsee
2. They were landing somewhere that didn't have an approach (i.e. not an airport)
3. The pilot wasn't IFR current... but that seems unlikely as I can't see the insurance companies not having that as a stipulation.

 

[Bill]

It's not an instantaneous transition going from the VFR (looking outside) thought process to an IFR scan. At its core the IFR scan is scanning 6 gauges (which may or may not be combined on composite displays): airspeed, attitude, direction (DG or HSI), altitude, vertical speed, turn coordinator. It's a ballet and takes recent practice to do competently which is why there are IFR currency requirements and why most pilots who fly IFR take time to practice their "scan" even when not flying IFR. It's also hard because these gauges are telling you one thing and your brain is often telling you that the gauges are WRONG. Combine that with knowing that you have to account for terrain avoidance and make an aeronautical decision on the route of the flight as you are now illegal flying SVFR into instrument conditions (this is an assumption).... for a single pilot in a fairly complex aircraft this can lead to task saturation which would help hasten the onset of disorientation.

These are the six gauges that hankster2 is referring to. In proper working order these instruments will tell you the things your aircraft is doing in the sky in relation to the earth. And yes, it does take some skill to use these in a way that will allow you to maintain controlled flight and reach your destination. However, more is needed for a safe landing if the visibility at you destination airport is zero all the way to the ground. And not every aircraft or airport is equipped to handle those kinds of approaches and landings.

 

[LuvNOLA]

I'll throw out a little more speculation: Get-there-itis is the term for the cause of most of the bad decisions in aviation.
I haven't really dug into the details, but I was under the impression that the helicopter was holding just outside of a Class airspace for 10-15 minutes waiting on the Special VFR clearance. Looking at the limited data from one of the early articles, I couldn't quite wrap my head around why a helicopter would be scud running that close to terrain at those high high speeds. It's a poor decision.
If there was pressure to get somewhere at a certain time, which caused a decision to fly in questionable weather, and the questionable weather caused a delay due to waiting on an SVFR clearance, and that delay resulted in a decision to run a little fast... it's that classic case of compounding bad decisions.

The other question is why they didn't just file IFR. The only things I can think of is:
1. They wanted to sightsee
2. They were landing somewhere that didn't have an approach (i.e. not an airport)
3. The pilot wasn't IFR current... but that seems unlikely as I can't see the insurance companies not having that as a stipulation.

Kobe helped Kawhi Leonard with the logistics of SoCal travel........so Kawhi used the same helo & same pilot as Kobe, when he traveled back to his home in San Diego. Now, Kawhi said he is, “sad every day” about all of the tragic loss of 9 lives.

The ABC reporter, Matt Gutman, was suspended after he falsely speculated, on air, that all 4 of Kobe’s daughters were on the flight.

 

[Bill]

I'll throw out a little more speculation: Get-there-itis is the term for the cause of most of the bad decisions in aviation.
I haven't really dug into the details, but I was under the impression that the helicopter was holding just outside of a Class airspace for 10-15 minutes waiting on the Special VFR clearance. Looking at the limited data from one of the early articles, I couldn't quite wrap my head around why a helicopter would be scud running that close to terrain at those high high speeds. It's a poor decision.
If there was pressure to get somewhere at a certain time, which caused a decision to fly in questionable weather, and the questionable weather caused a delay due to waiting on an SVFR clearance, and that delay resulted in a decision to run a little fast... it's that classic case of compounding bad decisions.

The other question is why they didn't just file IFR. The only things I can think of is:
1. They wanted to sightsee
2. They were landing somewhere that didn't have an approach (i.e. not an airport)
3. The pilot wasn't IFR current... but that seems unlikely as I can't see the insurance companies not having that as a stipulation.

"Get-There-Itis" is the big 'no-no' for any pilot (and/or aircraft) that is not equipped to handle difficult weather conditions.
In my speculation, the flight originated in an area (John Wayne Airport near Santa Ana) that was not experiencing conditions as poor as what they were about to fly into. The flight to Glendale over Interstate 5 was very uneventful. But this Special VFR flight was asked to circle low over Glendale until controllers allowed the S-76 to proceed. Continuing northwest over I-5 allowed them to remain clear of the mountain ranges to the east and north before he would turn west and then southwest to intercept Hwy 101 that would take them all the way into Thousand Oaks where the Mamba Center (the place where the scheduled basketball tournament was being held) is located.

I believe your point #2 is the answer to the 'Why not just fly IFR' question. Kobe Bryant and his fellow passengers were likely being flown directly to the facility. There appears to be an area just across the street from the facility that was suitable for an S-76 approach and landing as long as the visibility was suitable. I can't say for certain, but that may have been their way of avoiding all the time-delaying traffic and they may have assumed that on the (approximately) 30 minute flight the conditions may not have been any worse at the destination than at the point of origin. They were wrong. It got much worse.

 

[LuvNOLA]

Also, the coroner has now identified all of the bodies. They said all 9 died of blunt trauma. The cause of death was listed as an accident.

Sure hope it was just blunt trauma & not total body burns.

 

[Bill]

Also, the coroner has now identified all of the bodies. They said all 9 died of blunt trauma. The cause of death was listed as an accident.

Sure hope it was just blunt trauma & not total body burns.

Unless bodies were thrown clear of the wreckage, they would have been in the section of the cabin that was on fire. The tail section (the only unconsumed part of the aircraft from the news footage) would not have anyone in it. But no one ever reported where the bodies were found in the crash.

The occupants may not have been completely incinerated, but if they were still in the cabin, it's safe to assume that their bodies won't be in a viewable condition.

 

[DaveXA]

A bit depressing to think about, but I wonder if Kobe and his daughter's funeral would be at the same time or would the family have 2 separate ones. Similar thoughts for the other families as well. Just a terrible tragedy. I cant imagine what the surviving families are going through.

 

[Maik Jeaunz]

"Get-There-Itis" is the big 'no-no' for any pilot (and/or aircraft) that is not equipped to handle difficult weather conditions.
In my speculation, the flight originated in an area (John Wayne Airport near Santa Ana) that was not experiencing conditions as poor as what they were about to fly into. The flight to Glendale over Interstate 5 was very uneventful. But this Special VFR flight was asked to circle low over Glendale until controllers allowed the S-76 to proceed. Continuing northwest over I-5 allowed them to remain clear of the mountain ranges to the east and north before he would turn west and then southwest to intercept Hwy 101 that would take them all the way into Thousand Oaks where the Mamba Center (the place where the scheduled basketball tournament was being held) is located.

thank you to all of the flying experts in this thread. I apologize if this has been touched on earlier in the thread, but...

I still don't understand why they would have continued northwest along the 5, just to cut back southwest across the valley to get to the 101. from where they were in Glendale, they could have followed the 134 right to the 101 where it connects in Studio City, and then just follow the 101 the rest of the way. that is pretty much a straight shot west from Glendale to TO.

 

[Bill]

It's not an instantaneous transition going from the VFR (looking outside) thought process to an IFR scan. At its core the IFR scan is scanning 6 gauges (which may or may not be combined on composite displays): airspeed, attitude, direction (DG or HSI), altitude, vertical speed, turn coordinator.

hankster2... I realized after you mentioned the instruments that I had gotten into the habit of using the term 'HSI' when referring to the instruments that was packaged together on the instrument panel of our 172 company that I was using on the return flight from MSY to Hammond. The top gauge was (or course) the attitude indicator and the bottom gauge was the Girectional Gyro with the built in VOR system, or Horizontal Situation Indicator was on the bottom. I don't remember for sure if it was a King or Garmin unit, but I do remember that when I was first learning VOR navigation, my instructor would point to the unit when he'd see the course needle swinging off center and ask me, "What is your HSI telling you?" He obviously wanted to know if I understood why it was swinging in the direction that it was, and I'd explain the situation so that he knew I understood how the system worked. So I got into the habit of calling (to myself, since I never gave instructions to anyone) that combo unit an HSI. But for the sake of accuracy I corrected the description of it in my account of spatial disorientation.

And naturally when I began to do my instrument scan in that experience, I first locked in on the attitude indicator (artificial horizon) and rolled to the right until it showed that the wings were level in all that pitch blackness over Lake Pontchartrain before pulling the nose up to the blue 'sky' of that vital instrument. As you expressed so eloquently, things go wrong very quickly in zero visibility because while the mind is trying to process the best way to handle critical situations, things are getting even more critical until the correct action is taken.

What every VFR pilot has to realize very early on in his flight training is that the visual clues coming from outside the aircraft (even from your peripheral vision) is constantly being processed by your brain and is causing you to make the minute corrections for level flight without your even noticing it. So when those adjustments are no longer being accurately & automatically made due to lack of that visual data, it's only by means of the 'six-pack' of instruments that a pilot can know what his aircraft is really doing. And left only to the sensations in your head, you will likely be feeling something very different from what the aircraft is really doing.