Tom Brady vs Drew Brees - GOAT (1 Viewer)

[Alan12]

It's Brady and it's not close. Rings talk. And the one season Tom Brady played in a wide-open offense with weapons like Drew typically has, he put up 4,800 yards, 50 touchdowns, and 8 interceptions, and they only lost one game (lol).

Start the debate at who #2 is.

If “rings talked” as much as you say they do, Bill Russell would the GOAT in basketball thanks to his 11 rings. Kids today would all be wearing “Air Russells” instead of Jordans.

And Henri Richard would be the GOAT in hockey with his 11 Stanley Cups and he would be known as “the Great One” instead of Wayne Gretzky.

I don’t care how many rings Brady has, it will never make him the GOAT.

 

[pape]

Brady is 6-3 in Superbowls. I don’t like playing the what-if game but he could very well be 5-4 or 4-5 seeing as the majority of the Pats SB wins have come down to last second field goals, interceptions, or miraculous catches (Edelman vs Falcons).

if you have to "what if" your argument, the point is already lost.

 

[Bill]

In the world of team sports, it's so difficult to label any player the GOAT because all that a person can go by in that evaluation are statistics & accomplishments. And yet a good part of those numbers will be based on the team and organization that a stellar athlete plays for. It's telling that many highly touted college football players who eventually become very early draft picks in the NFL amount to nothing in the pro ranks. Often the reason is because these celebrated picks usually land on a team that is struggling and are never able to give these obviously gifted kids the teammates needed to help them excel.

Brees & Brady are both outstanding at what they do. But that GOAT designation may never have been given to either of them had they landed on some 'roster of hopelessness'. I'm not going to try and argue about which of these two players hit the jackpot regarding who inherited the better situation or which one had to do the most to make his team what it is today. Nor will I try to infer how the situation for each franchise may have contributed to which player had the best chance at receiving the ultimate prize at the end of each season...

... because we already know the answers to those questions. Both of these guys are great players, and they both are in good situations to help each to be true HOF'ers as soon as their retirement waiting period is over. But would either Brees or Brady have been able to transform a truly awful team to the level of success that they enjoy today without some wise & sweeping changes made within that club? My guess is 'no'. And the sad part of this story is wondering how many other potential GOATs never got that opportunity simply because of where they got drafted into the league.

Chances are, we'll never know who is really the greatest among these two guys because each person seems to determine 'GOATness' differently, and few take into consideration the position that each player is in to be able to earn his 'medals'. People will always be able to point to some specific stat that they hold as being the ultimate rationale for establishing the GOAT quarterback. But I wouldn't trade my GOAT quarterback for any other. And that's all that matters to me.

 

[panther17]

This topic only has serious conversation on one teams message board.

Brees is a heck of a talented number 2 in my lifetime.

 

[44slayer]

I think the ridiculousness of the AFC east HAS to be considered. For 20 years, it has been the most consistently horrendous division in any sport known to man. Lets say the Pats slip up and lose 1 to that band of misfits. They are basically spotted 5-6 wins a year, every year. This year as long as they show up on time against the Jets and Dolphins the NFL will give them a W.

That being said. 6 rings is 6 rings. Theres only so much you can argue about 6 rings to 1 ring. Brees has had Payton, a offensive genius and future HoF coach. Brady has had Belichick, say what you will about him, the guy is in a class by himself. He has no peer. So you give coach to Brady, 6 rings to Brady. You give playing in a harder division to Brees, and Brees many years playing without much of a defense. Statistically Brees is more impressive, but its not like Brady isnt filling the stat sheet either.

You are just pretty much left with 6 rings. Brees is my guy. Id roll with him until he is 50 is he chooses. But 6 rings is 6 rings.

 

[David Robbins]

But would either Brees or Brady have been able to transform a truly awful team to the level of success that they enjoy today without some wise & sweeping changes made within that club? My guess is 'no'

Great post, Bill. But, let me say this. There are many teams that the Saints have had where if we had not of had Drew, we would not have won more than 4 or 6 games. Not to mention the players he has had that he made better: Colston, Thomas (Pierre), Snead....and so forth. I still say that if Drew played with the teams Brady has had around him, he would have won multiple Superbowls.

I will also reiterate my point: If either Brady or Brees played for the Browns, would either have won anything? No! If Tim Couch had landed with Sean Payton, or Bill Belicheck, would he have been a superstar? Maybe!

The point of this thread was not about Superbowl rings. That means very little in debate on the GOAT. Superbowls are gotten to and won because of the Team. GOAT is because of the personal accomplishments. Drew outshines Tom in this category. He should retire with almost every record a QB can achieve, and Tom has been in the league longer. Drew is the GOAT.

 

[David Robbins]

G: Greatest
O: Of
A: All
T: Time

Notice, this acronym is talking about a person. The greatest at his position. His accomplishments. I have to say this again. Stats are pretty much everything in this debate. This debate is about Personal Accomplishments, not Team Accomplishments. Rings are a part of the Stats, but only 1 category. There is Passing Percentage, Completions, Attempts, Yards, MVP's, YPA, 5,000 yard seasons, TD's, and so forth. All are categories in the discussion. Drew far surpasses Brady in all of these except Rings, and MVP's. Same could be said for Manning, Graham, Rogers, and any other QB you want to bring up. None of their numbers compare to what Drew has accomplished as a QB. This is why he is the GOAT.

 

[pape]

G: Greatest
O: Of
A: All
T: Time

Notice, this acronym is talking about a person. The greatest at his position. His accomplishments. I have to say this again. Stats are pretty much everything in this debate. This debate is about Personal Accomplishments, not Team Accomplishments. Rings are a part of the Stats, but only 1 category. There is Passing Percentage, Completions, Attempts, Yards, MVP's, YPA, 5,000 yard seasons, TD's, and so forth. All are categories in the discussion. Drew far surpasses Brady in all of these except Rings, and MVP's. Same could be said for Manning, Graham, Rogers, and any other QB you want to bring up. None of their numbers compare to what Drew has accomplished as a QB. This is why he is the GOAT.

so, based on your argument, that its mostly stats, Drew is the GOAT/RS

because when we compare the totality of stats, Brady dwarfs everyone ...

or do we just ignore the post season because its inconvenient?

 

[Stalwart385]

Wins and Superbowls are a team stat.

Brees is the GOAT for me because he's overcome one of the worst defenses, hardest divisions and owns pretty much all QB records. Brady is approaching almost a full season's more games to achieve the numbers Peyton and Brees have.

 

[DaveXA]

Here's the question: If you took either, and put them on the Cleveland Browns, would either even be in this discussion? Neither would have won any Superbowls. That's a given. Then, you have to ask the question that's already been brought up, and that's Superbowl rings, and the all-around teams Brady has played with, compared with Drew.

If you look at all the great QB's - Montanna, Elway, Favre, Manning, and so forth - they played for teams that want to win, and try to provide "teams" around them.

Look at Tim Couch. There is no question he had the talent to be a very good QB, but he went to the Browns. He had no O-Line, and was not allowed to grow to become what he possibly could have been. If you put either of our QB's we are talking about on the team he played for, what would they have done?

The GOAT discussion is fun. I still believe - and always will - that Drew is the better QB. He just hasn't had the teams around him Brady has.

PM: Manning is another prime example of this. If he had played for the Patriots, what would he have done? Rogers? Ryan? Any other talented QB that doesn't have a team around them?

I hear you, but Tim Couch is a terrible example. He was not a very good qb. A better example would be Dan Marino or Dan Fouts. Probably 2 of the best to never win a SB.

 

[Stalwart385]

 

[DaveXA]

Wins and Superbowls are a team stat.

Brees is the GOAT for me because he's overcome one of the worst defenses, hardest divisions and owns pretty much all QB records. Brady is approaching almost a full season's more games to achieve the numbers Peyton and Brees have.

While he had great seasons, Brees never really overcame our terrible defenses. The year we won the SB, 2011 and last year the defense played pretty well to aweosome. The 7-9 years when missing the playoffs, the defenses were horrific, historically bad. There's no question if Brees had the Pats' scenario, he has 5-7 SBs. But the question is whether it's reasonable to compare 2 qbs facing drastically different circumstances.

I mean, let's not forget he led the Pats from 3-28 to win the SB.

 

[Stalwart385]

While he had great seasons, Brees never really overcame our terrible defenses. The year we won the SB, 2011 and last year the defense played pretty well to aweosome. The 7-9 years when missing the playoffs, the defenses were horrific, historically bad. There's no question if Brees had the Pats' scenario, he has 5-7 SBs. But the question is whether it's reasonable to compare 2 qbs facing drastically different circumstances.

I mean, let's not forget he led the Pats from 3-28 to win the SB.

So ignore wins and SB because it's a team stat. After that Brees has been a better QB.

Btw by "overcome" I mean being an all-time great with the entire weight of the organization on his shoulders.

 

[DaveXA]

So ignore wins and SB because it's a team stat. After that Brees has been a better QB.

Well, throwing out records and SBs seems too convenient to me. That has to be part of the total package. I mean, are we going to crown Ryan because his numbers are consistently near the top of the league? It's worth considering anyway. The GOAT will always be a subjective argument.

Regardless, I'd rather have SBs than records.

 

[Stalwart385]

Well, throwing out records and SBs seems too convenient to me. That has to be part of the total package. I mean, are we going to crown Ryan because his numbers are consistently near the top of the league? It's worth considering anyway. The GOAT will always be a subjective argument.

Regardless, I'd rather have SBs than records.

It's not convenient it's perfectly logical. Wins are determined by offense, defense and the opponent. The QB only controls 1 of those.