Tom Bradys stats against team with a good defensive front line (2 Viewers)

[sfidc3]

I have no qualms with being considered a delusional Drew Brees worshipper. None. But don't try and use my mental state to avoid backing up your proclamations.

You keep referencing numbers, but what numbers? What individual numbers are you using as a metric to say Brady is the greatest ever? Just list them in bullet form.

Man-to-man, QB-to-QB, what aspects of Tom's Brady game makes him better than Drew Brees or anyone else whoever took the field as an NFL QB?

I already have but ok, I will again. I'm referencing his numbers in the Superbowls, you know the most important biggest game of the year....

6-3 record
315 yards a game (including a 505 yard game 3 TD's in a loss to Eagles)
18 TD's to 6INT's (3-1 ratio)
95.6 rating

That's the logic you use, not the logic used against him. The actual argument is all the luxuries he had around him that propelled him to those rings.

- Yearly Top 10 defense. Averaged about the top 5 over his tenure. That's most likely the best defense in the league over that span.

- The worst division in football over his tenure. Guaranteed playoff spot and 6 easy games to help get a bye.

All rolled into the only argument for Brady as goat, team accomplishments.

It's not the only argument, he still had to beat the best AFC teams and the best NFC teams to get those 6 titles. And his performance in those games is why he is the GOAT IMO....and it's not close....I sure wish it was though....

Some may not agree but QB's are remembered for getting to and their performance in SB's more than anything else.

I'll close with this, a feel that this is an emotional thing for many, I totally get that and were Brees to have more opportunities to get to and play in more SB's the story could be different. But he didn't and at this point nothing can change that....

 

[Scorpius the Allfather]

Interesting choice of comparatives... No Matty Poop would not have won 6. But we are talking GOAT contenders. Yes I DO believe DB would have won 6 in that environment. Yes I DO think Brett Favre would have. Yes I DO believe Aaron Rogers would have... I'll stop there but there are probably others.... So to annoint tommy based on rings is lazy analysis

If you're trying to argue that a QB is overrated then stop talking about Tom Brady and start talking about Rodgers. Dude isn't clutch when the game is on the line. Besides, I think it's kind of funny that you're arguing over the top 2 spots here. Who cares if someone thinks Brady is the best(I don't)?

 

[MV2]

Brady is not the GOAT. Dude won his first ring with 145 yards passing, one where he didn't even score a point (0 TD's), one because Pete Carrol lost his mind and didn't give the ball to beastmode, one that required an epic meltdown by the Falcons offense, and I could go on. Rings are team accomplishments. If you give Drew or Aaron a cupcake walk through their divisions, home field advantage in the playoffs all the time, help from the zebras and a top 15 defense for 20 years then I'm sure they would both have more rings than they do. They both would have beaten Tom in some of those superbowls I'm sure of it.

Brady is a great player, but he's not the best QB I've ever seen. He has played on the greatest Dynasties that the NFL has ever known. Surely nobody should give credit for that to one player. Just my 2 pennies

 

[kizzy821]

I already have but ok, I will again. I'm referencing his numbers in the Superbowls, you know the most important biggest game of the year....

6-3 record
315 yards a game (including a 505 yard game 3 TD's in a loss to Eagles)
18 TD's to 6INT's (3-1 ratio)
95.6 rating

At first I thought we were comparing the careers of the two. Then maybe just playoffs. Now you've whittled it down to only performances in the most important biggest game of the year... ok.

6-3 is a team record and isn't necessarily a reflection of the individual player.

Tom averages 27 more yards a game than Drew.

He averages 2 TDs per appearance. So does Drew.

We can omit the INTs if you want since Tom throws on average less than 1 per game while Drew threw none.

Drew's QB rating was 114.5.

Conclusion: 27 yards does not a GOAT make.

And at this point, I'm deliberately messing with you because I already know there isn't any support for GOAT Brady outside of those SB wins by the Patriots.

 

[MV2]

If we agree that SB wins (and wins in general) are team wins and that Drew and Tom are individuals, what evidence is there that Tom Brady is a superior QB to Drew Brees? What does Tom do better than Drew? What sets him apart, far enough apart to be considered the GOAT? Is he more athletic, smarter, more accurate? Is he more surgical in his throws, more elusive? Pass for more yards, moves better in the pocket. WHAT?

Rings are just awards that your organization wins. Having the most of them does not equal greatest of all time.

George Solti has the most grammys. More than Quincy Jones, Aretha Franklin and Bruce Springsteen. So when's the last time someone argued that George was the GOAT.

This. Great post!

 

[ItFan]

C’mon, Brady has six rings. You can’t fluke that. He has consistently performed in the post-season when it counts. In fact he’s probably been a more reliable performer in playoff games than Drew.

Saints fans are great advocates for Drew who, all told, is probably marginally underrated because of how poor some of our defences have been.

But relying on TB12s output in a few games as a 43 year-old as evidence that he’s not the best of all-time? That’s a bit of a stretch.

Plain false about Drew. Compare the PO stats by Drew with an equal number of games by Brady (who played more), and you’ll get the same numbers. Difference was in the defense.

 

[MV2]

You are either intentionally ignoring or outright dismissing the Brady GOAT argument. It is NOT JUST THE RINGS, it is his performance that played a huge role in getting those rings that makes him the GOAT....

And that comment about listening to the "so-called" experts is total BS. I don't pay attention to any of those fools (except real analysts like the Baldinger types which are few and far between). Just look at the numbers, they are overwhelming, I just don't see how anyone can deny that....but you certainly have a right to your opinion

3 Vinatieri game winning kicks, one ring with 145 yards passing, one with no TD's, one falcon melt down and one seahawk brain fart. His largest victory was 10pts against the Rams and in that game he didn't score a single point. In six rings their combined win margin was 29pts.Their average margin of victory in 6 wins was 4.83 pts. That doesn't speak to the greatness of Brady, but the team and coaching to pull off close wins every time.

You are overstating his contribution to those rings by a mile. Drew had amazing seasons without a ring. So obviously QB's with great production don't always equal team success. You can't have it both ways.

 

[Stalwart385]

You have a right to your opinion but IMO think very few people other than Drew Brees delusional worshippers would argue he was the GOAT over Brady at this point in time.

I'm certainly a Brees worshipper but I'm not delusional or in denial of the numbers and facts.

Brady is probably a jerk, and there is a reason that a lot of folks can't stand him or the Patriots, I get it...but to deny he is the GOAT? The record and numbers say otherwise....

People are lazy. "Oh, look 6 championships. That's enough research I'm done."

What numbers and facts are you referring to? Please don't just say it, prove it. The only numbers and facts I've seen to support him as goat are 6 team accomplishments.

And to be clear I don't care who anyone thinks is the goat but don't tell me Brady is the defacto goat because of 6 rings. Make a case about what he accomplished at the QB position that stood above the rest.

 

[jayd265]

Tom Brady is 0-for-19 on pass attempts of 20-plus yards over the past month.
That's a 0.0 quarterback rating if you're counting at home. It's an area where the stats match the eye test, as Brady has been throwing one wounded dove after another whenever he ventures beyond the second level of the defense. Coach Bruce Arians has said Brady might be confused by the coverages, which, yikes. Despite decent overall statistics, Brady is beginning to look like a weak link on an otherwise dominant roster. Brady has made like Lazarus more than once in his career. He needs to now more than ever. The Chiefs are on deck for Week 12.

wow.

 

[DreadedOne]

LOL, the same logic being used against Brady with regards to Belicheat, could just as easily be used against Brees with regards to Payton. Honestly, for better or worse, we cannot take the coach out of the picture to judge just the player. It's similar to saying that an elite RB is trash with 5 rookies on the o-line. You have to look at these things from the perspective of the team, always. Brady was the unequivocal leader on a team that won SIX super bowls. You can't argue against that. Drew Brees body of work (statistically) very well may be better. He doesn't have the rings though, Brady does. Same reason Belicheat will always be looked upon as a better coach than Payton. In my rose colored glasses, sure I think Drew/Payton are the best to ever do it. If I'm being rational though, Brady/Belicheat are the GOAT, and there is little argument that can be made against that.

Here is how I look at it...

Belichik is the greatest mastermind coach....the 6 rings prove that his system works. No quarterback without a good system will be successful in the postseason long term. If you know anything about systems design or systems engineering you'll understand what I mean.

Brees is mechanically, the greatest quarterback in NFL history. No body has been better at delivering footballs on time, and precisely where they need to be over such a long period of time.

Michael Vick is probably the greatest scrambling quarterback ever to play the game on pure rushing alone.

Steve Young is probably the greatest rushing/passing quarterback to play the game.

Other quarterbacks are probably the best at whatever they are the best at to ever play the game.

No single quarterback is the greatest to ever play the game. Comparing xbox to playstation is pointless...just like this arguement.

 

[Poison]

People are lazy. "Oh, look 6 championships. That's enough research I'm done."

What numbers and facts are you referring to? Please don't just say it, prove it. The only numbers and facts I've seen to support him as goat are 6 team accomplishments.

And to be clear I don't care who anyone thinks is the goat but don't tell me Brady is the defacto goat because of 6 rings. Make a case about what he accomplished at the QB position that stood above the rest.

I have literally spent an entire thread supplying statistics about strength of division, individual playoff records (yards, completions, TDs) and playoff wins and people still keep contributing this silly hot take with a straight face as if six rings is just pure coincidence (“it was the defence”; “it was the kicker”; “it was the outcome of some individual play unrelated to TB12”).

Brady and Belichick are the only constant in New England over the period of six rings, nine Super Bowl appearances, and in Brady’s case, four SB MVPs.

You don’t fluke those stats.

You don’t win 75% of playoff games just because you’re in a “weak division” (if that was all it took, the Saints would’ve breezed to the SB after the 2011, 18 and 19 regular seasons).

Brady wins when it counts. He’s done it nearly twice as many times as the next closest QB, Joe Montana. That’s why he’s the best. Saying he isn’t because of “passing mechanics” or whatever else is being relied on as evidence to the contrary is just absurd.

 

[MV2]

People are lazy. "Oh, look 6 championships. That's enough research I'm done."

What numbers and facts are you referring to? Please don't just say it, prove it. The only numbers and facts I've seen to support him as goat are 6 team accomplishments.

And to be clear I don't care who anyone thinks is the goat but don't tell me Brady is the defacto goat because of 6 rings. Make a case about what he accomplished at the QB position that stood above the rest.

Exactly! Folks try the same thing with MJ.

 

[Clintonrebel]

You could probably say the same about his play the last 10 years. Playing in a division with the Jets and Dolphins and Bills (until lately) carried Tom a LOOONG way

 

[Stalwart385]

I have literally spent an entire thread supplying statistics about strength of division, individual playoff records (yards, completions, TDs) and playoff wins and people still keep contributing this silly hot take with a straight face as if six rings is just pure coincidence (“it was the defence”; “it was the kicker”; “it was the outcome of some individual play unrelated to TB12”).

Brady and Belichick are the only constant in New England over the period of six rings, nine Super Bowl appearances, and in Brady’s case, four SB MVPs.

You don’t fluke those stats.

You don’t win 75% of playoff games just because you’re in a “weak division” (if that was all it took, the Saints would’ve breezed to the SB after the 2011, 18 and 19 regular seasons).

Brady wins when it counts. He’s done it nearly twice as many times as the next closest QB, Joe Montana. That’s why he’s the best. Saying he isn’t because of “passing mechanics” or whatever else is being relied on as evidence to the contrary is just absurd.

"Wins", "win percentage", "Super Bowl appearances", "rings"

Team accomplishments.

Still nothing on what makes him the best QB ever. Put any HoF'er with a top 10 defense his whole career and their team will win a lot.

...

Since you are avoiding it I'll post the facts. Let's look at actual QB numbers among his peers, how they performed at the position:

Manning:
Led the league in Comp% (2 times)
Yards (3)
TDs (3)
Rating (2)
Career avg: 65.3%; 270.5 y/g; 5.7 TD%; 2.7 Int%; 96.5 rating

Brees:
Comp% (7)
Yards (7)
TDs (4)
Rating (2)
Career avg: 67.8%; 280.3 y/g; 5.4 TD%; 2.3 Int%; 98.7 rating

Brady:
Comp% (1)
Yards (3)
TDs (4)
Rating (2)
Career avg: 63.9%; 261.9 y/g; 5.4 TD%; 1.8 Int%; 96.9 rating

Playoff Career:
Manning: 63.2%; 271.8 y/g; 3.9 TD%; 2.4 Int%; 87.4 rating
Brees: 67.0%; 310.4 y/g; 5.2 TD%; 1.9 Int%; 99.6 rating
Brady: 63.0%; 277.8 y/g; 4.5 TD%; 2.2 Int%; 89.8 rating


He's certainly part of the elite. I see nothing that screams best ever. You can make your case sure, but give any of these guys what he had and their team would win just the same.

 

[Poison]

"Wins", "win percentage", "Super Bowl appearances", "rings"

Team accomplishments.

Still nothing on what makes him the best QB ever. Put any HoF'er with a top 10 defense his whole career and their team will win a lot.

...

Since you are avoiding it I'll post the facts. Let's look at actual QB numbers among his peers, how they performed at the position:

Manning:
Led the league in Comp% (2 times)
Yards (3)
TDs (3)
Rating (2)
Career avg: 65.3%; 270.5 y/g; 5.7 TD%; 2.7 Int%; 96.5 rating

Brees:
Comp% (7)
Yards (7)
TDs (4)
Rating (2)
Career avg: 67.8%; 280.3 y/g; 5.4 TD%; 2.3 Int%; 98.7 rating

Brady:
Comp% (1)
Yards (3)
TDs (4)
Rating (2)
Career avg: 63.9%; 261.9 y/g; 5.4 TD%; 1.8 Int%; 96.9 rating

Playoff Career:
Manning: 63.2%; 271.8 y/g; 3.9 TD%; 2.4 Int%; 87.4 rating
Brees: 67.0%; 310.4 y/g; 5.2 TD%; 1.9 Int%; 99.6 rating
Brady: 63.0%; 277.8 y/g; 4.5 TD%; 2.2 Int%; 89.8 rating


He's certainly part of the elite. I see nothing that screams best ever. You can make your case sure, but give any of these guys what he had and their team would win just the same.

Comparing individual passing records without context is a deeply flawed exercise. Johnny Unitas, Frank Tarkenton, Otto Graham, Bart Starr, Roger Staubach and Sammy Baugh wouldn't be in the conversation for top 100 QBs of all time if you are just going to look at metrics like passing yards and completion percentage.

The one constant across generations is wins. And nobody wins more than Brady.

Three of Drew's five 5,000-yard seasons came in 7-9 years. Only one of his five 5,000+ yard seasons came in a year when we had a winning percentage above .500 (2011). Tremendous achievements, absolutely. But he picked up those records playing half the regular season indoors, chasing opposition leads, against teams who were quite happy to sit back in cushion defence and safeguard against big chunks of yardage given the way our defensive unit played through several of those years. Meanwhile, Brady was winning outdoor games (often in inclement weather) at Foxborough.

You play football to win championships. Reputations are made on the big stage.

Let me ask you this: since 2013, when has Drew had a genuine game-changing playoff performance? When has he absolutely seized the moment and stood out like, say, Mahomes in the Super Bowl last year? Or Brady v the Seahawks when he threw for 328 yards and four touchdowns and earned himself the Super Bowl MVP? Or engineered the greatest comeback in Super Bowl history v Atlanta?

I put to you that Drew has played one single half of elite football in the playoffs post-2011: the second half of the Minnesota Miracle game in 2017. That was a performance befitting his reputation.

Sadly, he was underwhelming against Minnesota last season when he was out-duelled by Kirk Cousins. In 2018, when we possessed the ball first in overtime in the NFCCG and he had a chance to send us to the Super Bowl, he was intercepted. Going back to 2013, we didn't score a point for three quarters of the divisional round game against the Seahawks. I am absolutely not suggesting he is the reason why we have not advanced in certain years, but in every game where we have been eliminated from the playoffs following on from the loss to the 49ers in 2011, save for the Minnesota Miracle game, Drew has under-performed by his own high standards.

Games like the rout of Indy on MNF last year when Drew put up video game type numbers are great fun to watch, but ultimately meaningless in the scheme of things when you don't capitalise in the post-season.

As I said: I love Drew. Favourite sportsperson of all-time, bar none. And you won't get any argument from me that he's a top 10 QB all-time. I am genuinely sitting here typing this in a Drew Brees #9 shirt under a wall-hanging piece of memorabilia celebrating him surpassing Manning's all-time passing yards record. But the collective inferiority complex our fans have with Brady and his records is silly.