Tom Bradys stats against team with a good defensive front line (2 Viewers)

[kizzy821]

Comparing individual passing records without context is a deeply flawed exercise. Johnny Unitas, Frank Tarkenton, Otto Graham, Bart Starr, Roger Staubach and Sammy Baugh wouldn't be in the conversation for top 100 QBs of all time if you are just going to look at metrics like passing yards and completion percentage.

The one constant across generations is wins. And nobody wins more than Brady.

Using an individual's stats to rank an individual is flawed, you say (look in a mirror and repeat that slowly )

If you were ranking punt returners and linebackers and guards, you know good and well you wouldn't bring up their team's win percentage to boost their rank.

 

[Stalwart385]

Comparing individual passing records without context is a deeply flawed exercise. Johnny Unitas, Frank Tarkenton, Otto Graham, Bart Starr, Roger Staubach and Sammy Baugh wouldn't be in the conversation for top 100 QBs of all time if you are just going to look at metrics like passing yards and completion percentage.

The one constant across generations is wins. And nobody wins more than Brady.

Three of Drew's five 5,000-yard seasons came in 7-9 years. Only one of his five 5,000+ yard seasons came in a year when we had a winning percentage above .500 (2011). Tremendous achievements, absolutely. But he picked up those records playing half the regular season indoors, chasing opposition leads, against teams who were quite happy to sit back in cushion defence and safeguard against big chunks of yardage given the way our defensive unit played through several of those years. Meanwhile, Brady was winning outdoor games (often in inclement weather) at Foxborough.

You play football to win championships. Reputations are made on the big stage.

Let me ask you this: since 2013, when has Drew had a genuine game-changing playoff performance? When has he absolutely seized the moment and stood out like, say, Mahomes in the Super Bowl last year? Or Brady v the Seahawks when he threw for 328 yards and four touchdowns and earned himself the Super Bowl MVP? Or engineered the greatest comeback in Super Bowl history v Atlanta?

I put to you that Drew has played one single half of elite football in the playoffs post-2011: the second half of the Minnesota Miracle game in 2017. That was a performance befitting his reputation.

Sadly, he was underwhelming against Minnesota last season when he was out-duelled by Kirk Cousins. In 2018, when we possessed the ball first in overtime in the NFCCG and he had a chance to send us to the Super Bowl, he was intercepted. Going back to 2013, we didn't score a point for three quarters of the divisional round game against the Seahawks. I am absolutely not suggesting he is the reason why we have not advanced in certain years, but in every game where we have been eliminated from the playoffs following on from the loss to the 49ers in 2011, save for the Minnesota Miracle game, Drew has under-performed by his own high standards.

Games like the rout of Indy on MNF last year when Drew put up video game type numbers are great fun to watch, but ultimately meaningless in the scheme of things when you don't capitalise in the post-season.

As I said: I love Drew. Favourite sportsperson of all-time, bar none. And you won't get any argument from me that he's a top 10 QB all-time. I am genuinely sitting here typing this in a Drew Brees #9 shirt under a wall-hanging piece of memorabilia celebrating him surpassing Manning's all-time passing yards record. But the collective inferiority complex our fans have with Brady and his records is silly.

Yes, those QBs can't be compared to modern QB, that why you compare them to their peers. Stats don't translate across generations but they do to people in the same league you are playing with.

Brady played in the same exact league as Manning and Brees. Nothing about his play stood out. That's why I didn't include Rodgers. His play started in 2008 after a shift in the league, it will skew his career averages. It's why I was looking at how they yearly ranked among all QBs.

As far as memorable moments. You don't get memorable drives when your defense fails you. You don't get a memorable Superbowl because your defense couldn't make a stop earlier in the playoffs.

Game-winning drives imply winning. They mean your defense often also has to make a stop.

Brees lost the majority of his prime to horrible defenses. When he did make it to the playoffs his defenses failed him repeatedly.

Again those stats do matter because you are looking at the same era. In that era Brees was a significantly better QB than Brady in the playoffs. While Brady had the support of a top 10 defense to stop the other team from scoring Brees never had that luxury.

So the optics are worse even though Brees is playing better football. Winning and losing is a team game. You only favorably remember the wins. You forget Brady's poor performances, slow starts and bad finishes because his defense kept him in it or won the game for him.

Imagine if Brees had playoff games with ratings in the 40s to 70s like Brady. They would get blown out. Instead, they lose close games because it was all on Brees. And his great play is forgotten by people who only care about team stats. Even you, a Saints fan, are critisizing Brees for the same type of performance that easily won Brady many playoff games. Brees had to do more for his wins.

 

[Poison]

Using an individual's stats to rank an individual is flawed, you say (look in a mirror and repeat that slowly )

If you were ranking punt returners and linebackers and guards, you know good and well you wouldn't bring up their team's win percentage to boost their rank.

So you would agree then, would you not, that Carson Palmer is unquestionably a better QB than Roger Staubach, Johnny Unitas, Bart Starr and Otto Graham?

More passing yards, more passing touchdowns, a higher completion percentage - literally every key metric.

So why does Palmer not appear on these lists when the abovementioned four are right at the top?

Wouldn't be because they all lead their teams to multiple championships, would it?

 

[Stalwart385]

So you would agree then, would you not, that Carson Palmer is unquestionably a better QB than Roger Staubach, Johnny Unitas, Bart Starr and Otto Graham?

More passing yards, more passing touchdowns, a higher completion percentage - literally every key metric.

So why does Palmer not appear on these lists when the abovementioned four are right at the top?

Wouldn't be because they all lead their teams to multiple championships, would it?

Common man you know why. The stats matter. The year on the first line is just as important as any stat. I'm not saying stats are perfect but over the large sample that HoF's get you know how they played among their peers.

 

[kizzy821]

So you would agree then, would you not, that Carson Palmer is unquestionably a better QB than Roger Staubach, Johnny Unitas, Bart Starr and Otto Graham?

More passing yards, more passing touchdowns, a higher completion percentage - literally every key metric.

So why does Palmer not appear on these lists when the abovementioned four are right at the top?

Wouldn't be because they all lead their teams to multiple championships, would it?

Roger Staubach can go sit on a cactus. If I were ranking the best QBs, I'd factor in their individual performance stats. I don't know why that isn't weighted more than a team win, which is what I've been saying the entire time. I don't need any of them to be "unquestionably" the best. Their individual rank can be debated based on their individual performance.

Did you do your mirror exercise?

 

[DreadedOne]

Comparing individual passing records without context is a deeply flawed exercise. Johnny Unitas, Frank Tarkenton, Otto Graham, Bart Starr, Roger Staubach and Sammy Baugh wouldn't be in the conversation for top 100 QBs of all time if you are just going to look at metrics like passing yards and completion percentage.

The one constant across generations is wins. And nobody wins more than Brady.

Three of Drew's five 5,000-yard seasons came in 7-9 years. Only one of his five 5,000+ yard seasons came in a year when we had a winning percentage above .500 (2011). Tremendous achievements, absolutely. But he picked up those records playing half the regular season indoors, chasing opposition leads, against teams who were quite happy to sit back in cushion defence and safeguard against big chunks of yardage given the way our defensive unit played through several of those years. Meanwhile, Brady was winning outdoor games (often in inclement weather) at Foxborough.

You play football to win championships. Reputations are made on the big stage.

Let me ask you this: since 2013, when has Drew had a genuine game-changing playoff performance? When has he absolutely seized the moment and stood out like, say, Mahomes in the Super Bowl last year? Or Brady v the Seahawks when he threw for 328 yards and four touchdowns and earned himself the Super Bowl MVP? Or engineered the greatest comeback in Super Bowl history v Atlanta?

I put to you that Drew has played one single half of elite football in the playoffs post-2011: the second half of the Minnesota Miracle game in 2017. That was a performance befitting his reputation.

Sadly, he was underwhelming against Minnesota last season when he was out-duelled by Kirk Cousins. In 2018, when we possessed the ball first in overtime in the NFCCG and he had a chance to send us to the Super Bowl, he was intercepted. Going back to 2013, we didn't score a point for three quarters of the divisional round game against the Seahawks. I am absolutely not suggesting he is the reason why we have not advanced in certain years, but in every game where we have been eliminated from the playoffs following on from the loss to the 49ers in 2011, save for the Minnesota Miracle game, Drew has under-performed by his own high standards.

Games like the rout of Indy on MNF last year when Drew put up video game type numbers are great fun to watch, but ultimately meaningless in the scheme of things when you don't capitalise in the post-season.

As I said: I love Drew. Favourite sportsperson of all-time, bar none. And you won't get any argument from me that he's a top 10 QB all-time. I am genuinely sitting here typing this in a Drew Brees #9 shirt under a wall-hanging piece of memorabilia celebrating him surpassing Manning's all-time passing yards record. But the collective inferiority complex our fans have with Brady and his records is silly.

Let me help you out...nobody wins more than Belichik. He is the mastermind behind that system, not Brady. If it wasn't Belichik spending 3 years with brady coaching him directly on defense and how to read them, Brady would still be average as a QB. Belichik Is the reason Brady wins, just like he is the reason the rest of his players win...he is a great defensive mind with the best system football has ever seen.

 

[Poison]

Let me help you out...nobody wins more than Belichik. He is the mastermind behind that system, not Brady. If it wasn't Belichik spending 3 years with brady coaching him directly on defense and how to read them, Brady would still be average as a QB. Belichik Is the reason Brady wins, just like he is the reason the rest of his players win...he is a great defensive mind with the best system football has ever seen.

Well that explains why they're in third place in the AFC East with a 4-6 record this year then.

 

[Mississippi Saints Fan]

I think it just proves, once again, that the coach-QB relationship matters as much or more than any other factor. You can have a great coach or a great QB and just be above average. But if you have the right great coach and the right great QB, you can dominate. How those two work and fit together is key.

Bingo. While everyone has been trying to figure out whether Bilichick made Brady or vise versa, this has been largely overlooked. It could have just been the perfect combination of the two who made that team so good. Both are struggling this year.

 

[djshag]

3 Vinatieri game winning kicks, one ring with 145 yards passing, one with no TD's, one falcon melt down and one seahawk brain fart. His largest victory was 10pts against the Rams and in that game he didn't score a single point. In six rings their combined win margin was 29pts.Their average margin of victory in 6 wins was 4.83 pts. That doesn't speak to the greatness of Brady, but the team and coaching to pull off close wins every time.

You are overstating his contribution to those rings by a mile. Drew had amazing seasons without a ring. So obviously QB's with great production don't always equal team success. You can't have it both ways.

Thank you for pointing out Vinatieri's far more valuable contribution to getting those first rings. I don't know that there's ever been a more clutch kicker in the SB than Vinatieri.

 

[sfidc3]

At first I thought we were comparing the careers of the two. Then maybe just playoffs. Now you've whittled it down to only performances in the most important biggest game of the year... ok.

6-3 is a team record and isn't necessarily a reflection of the individual player.

Tom averages 27 more yards a game than Drew.

He averages 2 TDs per appearance. So does Drew.

We can omit the INTs if you want since Tom throws on average less than 1 per game while Drew threw none.

Drew's QB rating was 114.5.

Conclusion: 27 yards does not a GOAT make.

And at this point, I'm deliberately messing with you because I already know there isn't any support for GOAT Brady outside of those SB wins by the Patriots.

Oh...you got me....good one...

Career stats

Brees 280 yards a game, Brady 262 yards a game
TD % Brees 5.4, Brady 5.4
INT % Brees 2.3, Brady 1.8
Completion %, Brees 68%, Brady 64%

All of you honestly think that is some huge difference that favors Brees? Ok...I think any reasonable, rational folk would say that is pretty close to a wash. Throw in the fact that one QB has 1 SB win and the other has 6? I'm sure Brady had nothing to do with those SB wins though....yeah right

People are lazy. "Oh, look 6 championships. That's enough research I'm done."

What numbers and facts are you referring to? Please don't just say it, prove it. The only numbers and facts I've seen to support him as goat are 6 team accomplishments.

And to be clear I don't care who anyone thinks is the goat but don't tell me Brady is the defacto goat because of 6 rings. Make a case about what he accomplished at the QB position that stood above the rest.

People are lazy, it's like some don't even bother to read the whole thread and then post nonsense like this...

Let me help you out...nobody wins more than Belichik. He is the mastermind behind that system, not Brady. If it wasn't Belichik spending 3 years with brady coaching him directly on defense and how to read them, Brady would still be average as a QB. Belichik Is the reason Brady wins, just like he is the reason the rest of his players win...he is a great defensive mind with the best system football has ever seen.

Was about to say this wasn't aging well but it just a tone deaf post....no help wanted or required...Thanks

 

[DreadedOne]

Oh...you got me....good one...

Career stats

Brees 280 yards a game, Brady 262 yards a game
TD % Brees 5.4, Brady 5.4
INT % Brees 2.3, Brady 1.8
Completion %, Brees 68%, Brady 64%

All of you honestly think that is some huge difference that favors Brees? Ok...I think any reasonable, rational folk would say that is pretty close to a wash. Throw in the fact that one QB has 1 SB win and the other has 6? I'm sure Brady had nothing to do with those SB wins though....yeah right



People are lazy, it's like some don't even bother to read the whole thread and then post nonsense like this...



Was about to say this wasn't aging well but it just a tone deaf post....no help wanted or required...Thanks

System...look it up, I get it, its abstract and ambiguous to those not understanding what a system is. Brady doesn't win 6 superbowls without Belichick's system. This is basic system's engineering...no element or component is greater than the system. In 5 years, when Pat's and Newton go to 1-2 superbowls together you'll get it then.

 

[DreadedOne]

So I'm guessing, by some people's metrics, that you would have Montana and bradshaw as 2A and 2B (each won 4)
Rings are so overrated. In fact, I'd be willing to say that defense is MORE important than offense when it comes to down to advancing through theplayoffs and winning it all.

Great point, ask Trent Dilfer and Peyton Manning in defense won them a super bowl. Manning had no arm when he won his last one...but credit Manning because he was the QB.../s

 

[DreadedOne]

Comparing individual passing records without context is a deeply flawed exercise. Johnny Unitas, Frank Tarkenton, Otto Graham, Bart Starr, Roger Staubach and Sammy Baugh wouldn't be in the conversation for top 100 QBs of all time if you are just going to look at metrics like passing yards and completion percentage.

The one constant across generations is wins. And nobody wins more than Brady.

Three of Drew's five 5,000-yard seasons came in 7-9 years. Only one of his five 5,000+ yard seasons came in a year when we had a winning percentage above .500 (2011). Tremendous achievements, absolutely. But he picked up those records playing half the regular season indoors, chasing opposition leads, against teams who were quite happy to sit back in cushion defence and safeguard against big chunks of yardage given the way our defensive unit played through several of those years. Meanwhile, Brady was winning outdoor games (often in inclement weather) at Foxborough.

You play football to win championships. Reputations are made on the big stage.

Let me ask you this: since 2013, when has Drew had a genuine game-changing playoff performance? When has he absolutely seized the moment and stood out like, say, Mahomes in the Super Bowl last year? Or Brady v the Seahawks when he threw for 328 yards and four touchdowns and earned himself the Super Bowl MVP? Or engineered the greatest comeback in Super Bowl history v Atlanta?

I put to you that Drew has played one single half of elite football in the playoffs post-2011: the second half of the Minnesota Miracle game in 2017. That was a performance befitting his reputation.

Sadly, he was underwhelming against Minnesota last season when he was out-duelled by Kirk Cousins. In 2018, when we possessed the ball first in overtime in the NFCCG and he had a chance to send us to the Super Bowl, he was intercepted. Going back to 2013, we didn't score a point for three quarters of the divisional round game against the Seahawks. I am absolutely not suggesting he is the reason why we have not advanced in certain years, but in every game where we have been eliminated from the playoffs following on from the loss to the 49ers in 2011, save for the Minnesota Miracle game, Drew has under-performed by his own high standards.

Games like the rout of Indy on MNF last year when Drew put up video game type numbers are great fun to watch, but ultimately meaningless in the scheme of things when you don't capitalise in the post-season.

As I said: I love Drew. Favourite sportsperson of all-time, bar none. And you won't get any argument from me that he's a top 10 QB all-time. I am genuinely sitting here typing this in a Drew Brees #9 shirt under a wall-hanging piece of memorabilia celebrating him surpassing Manning's all-time passing yards record. But the collective inferiority complex our fans have with Brady and his records is silly.

A ton of analytics have been done on Drew playing indoors vs. out proves is statistically exactly the same if not slightly better outdoors...please stop propagating a myth.

 

[sfidc3]

System...look it up, I get it, its abstract and ambiguous to those not understanding what a system is. Brady doesn't win 6 superbowls without Belichick's system. This is basic system's engineering...no element or component is greater than the system. In 5 years, when Pat's and Newton go to 1-2 superbowls together you'll get it then.

Right...my money is on Newton not being there next year....we will see...It's not one or the other, it is the combination of Brady and Belicheck that made the Patriots great. Below is a great post which apples to both the Brees SP and Brady Belicheck relationships....

I think it just proves, once again, that the coach-QB relationship matters as much or more than any other factor. You can have a great coach or a great QB and just be above average. But if you have the right great coach and the right great QB, you can dominate. How those two work and fit together is key.

 

[sfidc3]

Great point, ask Trent Dilfer and Peyton Manning in defense won them a super bowl. Manning had no arm when he won his last one...but credit Manning because he was the QB.../s

Great point. In one of NE's SB losses Brady set a record throwing for 505 yards and 3 TD's and put up 33 points with no INT's. In that loss NE's D gave up 41 points....see, it kind of works both ways.....

Those saying that Brady was not in anyway responsible for NE winning SB's or that some of the wins were "flukes" are just not being rational or reasonable....