Tom Bradys stats against team with a good defensive front line (3 Viewers)

[kizzy821]

Oh...you got me....good one...

Career stats

Brees 280 yards a game, Brady 262 yards a game
TD % Brees 5.4, Brady 5.4
INT % Brees 2.3, Brady 1.8
Completion %, Brees 68%, Brady 64%

All of you honestly think that is some huge difference that favors Brees? Ok...I think any reasonable, rational folk would say that is pretty close to a wash. Throw in the fact that one QB has 1 SB win and the other has 6? I'm sure Brady had nothing to do with those SB wins though....yeah right

I get it. You think Brady is the greatest QB of all time because his team won 6 super bowls. A lot of people think that. I don't.

I don't know who the GOAT is, but if I were to take on the task of declaring one, it would require a lot more analysis than just looking at which QB won the most SBs.

I'd look at their strengths and weaknesses, how they impacted their teams, did they elevate the play of their teammates. Could their skill set transcend teams or coaches or eras. What do they do better than anyone else. Stuff like that.

Truthfully, SB wins would be the last thing I considered unless I could quantify their part in those wins.

If you work on a group project, the group is usually graded as whole and everyone gets the same score. Even if one person did less work, they still benefit from the group grade. So I'd weight those accomplishments less.

But it's fine.

 

[DreadedOne]

Great point. In one of NE's SB losses Brady set a record throwing for 505 yards and 3 TD's and put up 33 points with no INT's. In that loss NE's D gave up 41 points....see, it kind of works both ways.....

Those saying that Brady was not in anyway responsible for NE winning SB's or that some of the wins were "flukes" are just not being rational or reasonable....

In a system you develop a component of that system to perform a function. Brady is a component. He performed his function well. Without the system though, he doesn't win a superbowl. This is true for every team that has won a superbowl...without the system, the component outputs (running, throwing, sacking) aren't interfaced properly to perform a bigger function, winning the game. Meaning 500 yards thrown in a system where the other components suck (defense, offensive line, etc) won't compensate and will ultimately fail. Consider your example and Drew Brees killing it with no defense.

Again my argument is that trying to compare one QB to another from different teams is nearly impossible. It's like saying the V6 in the Nissan GTR is better than the V8 in the Corvette or vice versa. Each operates well in the system they are in because they were developed in that system to perform the function the system required.

Brady was developed by Belichick to perform well in his system. Brees was developed by Payton to perform well in his system.

Individual statistics are a measure of performance of the QB, just like Horsepower is a measure of performance of an engine.

Superbowls are a measure of performance of the TEAM (system), just like lap times on a track are a measure of performance of the CAR (team).

Trying to tie superbowl wins and lap times (measures of performance) to any one part of the system breaks down. I can show you where the tuning of a cars suspension could be more important in winning a race versus engine performance and vice versa. We can do the same in football, dilfer versus the defense.

Did Brady play a significant role in the Patriots success over last 20 years, absolutely. But saying any one QB is GOAT is impractical and unprovable.

You'd have to take the two best systems in the history of the league, the 80-90 Niners and the 2000s Patriots, have every QB in the prime spend 20 years in the system to make that determination then compare individual and team measures of performance.

That us to say, like who you like, whether its playstation or xbox, just enjoy the game.

 

[sfidc3]

I get it. You think Brady is the greatest QB of all time because his team won 6 super bowls. A lot of people think that. I don't.

I don't know who the GOAT is, but if I were to take on the task of declaring one, it would require a lot more analysis than just looking at which QB won the most SBs.

I'd look at their strengths and weaknesses, how they impacted their teams, did they elevate the play of their teammates. Could their skill set transcend teams or coaches or eras. What do they do better than anyone else. Stuff like that.

Truthfully, SB wins would be the last thing I considered unless I could quantify their part in those wins.

If you work on a group project, the group is usually graded as whole and everyone gets the same score. Even if one person did less work, they still benefit from the group grade. So I'd weight those accomplishments less.

But it's fine.

Agreed, it is fine. My argument is his overall body of work in those SB's is a pretty good indication that he is the best, and both Brees and Brady's regular season career stats are comparable. Nothing sticks out to say one's body of work in the regular season is better than the others. But, fair or not, that is not how the greatest players are judged, I get that folks don't like or agree with that and that's fine.

I mean if Brady stunk it up in all of those games I would feel differently, but he didn't. In the end it's just my 2 cents and a fun debate....

 

[sfidc3]

In a system you develop a component of that system to perform a function. Brady is a component. He performed his function well. Without the system though, he doesn't win a superbowl. This is true for every team that has won a superbowl...without the system, the component outputs (running, throwing, sacking) aren't interfaced properly to perform a bigger function, winning the game. Meaning 500 yards thrown in a system where the other components suck (defense, offensive line, etc) won't compensate and will ultimately fail. Consider your example and Drew Brees killing it with no defense.

Again my argument is that trying to compare one QB to another from different teams is nearly impossible. It's like saying the V6 in the Nissan GTR is better than the V8 in the Corvette or vice versa. Each operates well in the system they are in because they were developed in that system to perform the function the system required.

Brady was developed by Belichick to perform well in his system. Brees was developed by Payton to perform well in his system.

Individual statistics are a measure of performance of the QB, just like Horsepower is a measure of performance of an engine.

Superbowls are a measure of performance of the TEAM (system), just like lap times on a track are a measure of performance of the CAR (team).

Trying to tie superbowl wins and lap times (measures of performance) to any one part of the system breaks down. I can show you where the tuning of a cars suspension could be more important in winning a race versus engine performance and vice versa. We can do the same in football, dilfer versus the defense.

Did Brady play a significant role in the Patriots success over last 20 years, absolutely. But saying any one QB is GOAT is impractical and unprovable.

You'd have to take the two best systems in the history of the league, the 80-90 Niners and the 2000s Patriots, have every QB in the prime spend 20 years in the system to make that determination then compare individual and team measures of performance.

That us to say, like who you like, whether its playstation or xbox, just enjoy the game.

Without the system he doesn't win a SB? That implies that Brady would definitively not win a SB with a different coach and system, that is simply untrue. We will never know and I believe to say it is not possible is flawed logic.

I do get what you are saying though and agree with most of it but I don't think it is unprovable any more than I don't think anyone can come up with a valid argument that Jerry Rice isn't the greatest WR of all time....

In the end its just my opinion....it's been a fun debate...Cheers

 

[LORD_BREESUS]

Bruce Arians is a considerable step down from Billy Boy. When youre QB is 43, and can't attack the deep 3rd with any consistency, you probably shouldn't call 5 to 7 deep shots a game and complete 0 of them time and time again.

 

[mdharper]

Well, I think you can extrapolate that stat over his entire career. It has made me sick how much time Brady has had to throw over his career. I think it's up to years now in the pocket.

In fact, the first time I ever remember seeing Brady pressured was that 2007-8 Super Bowl. I thought finally he can't sit back and pick his nose. Teams will finally start pressuring him. But no.

You see what Brady does better than most every quarterback is quick release and recognizing pre-snap where the extra pressure is coming from. Then he just throws to the vacated spot. On the rest of the plays, he seems to know the defensive call and his first read is open. It's been easy for him. He rarely has his first read taken away and if he does he generally has time to pat the ball a couple of times and let a receiver come open.

He has taken advantage of that. Kudos to him. But it doesn't make him the greatest of all time. The greatest is measured by what they do under duress and Tom falls woefully short when that happens.

 

[Poison]

A ton of analytics have been done on Drew playing indoors vs. out proves is statistically exactly the same if not slightly better outdoors...please stop propagating a myth.

Huh?

Traditional statistics confirm this split as well. According to Pro Football Reference, Brees’ career passer rating is 104.9 in indoor games. When playing outside, it’s 13.5 points lower. (Note: Pro Football Reference includes retractable roof games in its own category — Brees has an 89.9 rating in 11 career games.)

www.baltimoresun.com/gambling/ny-drew-brees-passing-record-betting-implication-20191220-d2sfiwtjfnfebamg3mo3n34dpq-story.html

Critics will claim that the passer’s accuracy is a by-product of playing in a dome. It is true that for his career, Brees has posted better numbers in a climate-controlled environment than in an outdoor game:

• Outside: 64.7 completion percentage, 7.14 yards/attempt, 1.87 touchdowns/interceptions, passer rating 90.9
• In a dome: 69.4 completion percentage, 8.03 yards/attempt, 2.51 touchdowns/interceptions, passer rating 103.2

This statistical decline outdoors is also reflected in his win/loss record. In dome games, Brees is 74-48 (60.7%) straight up, but his winning percentage is closer to 50% in outdoor games (65-56).

No Dome, No Problem: Drew Brees Is Undervalued by the Betting Market Outdoors | The Action Network

Drew Brees has performed better against-the-spread in outdoor games than in dome games, contrary to popular belief among sports bettors.

www.actionnetwork.com

Note the heading of the second article is misleading as it talks about Brees’ performance in terms of match totals markets and against the spread as set by betting agencies, not his stats in general.

Brady by comparison has played fewer than 30 career games indoors. It clearly has a material impact on the statistics.

 

[DreadedOne]

Agreed, it is fine. My argument is his overall body of work in those SB's is a pretty good indication that he is the best, and both Brees and Brady's regular season career stats are comparable. Nothing sticks out to say one's body of work in the regular season is better than the others. But, fair or not, that is not how the greatest players are judged, I get that folks don't like or agree with that and that's fine.

I mean if Brady stunk it up in all of those games I would feel differently, but he didn't. In the end it's just my 2 cents and a fun debate....

I would say that the only stat that Brees is significantly better in is completion percentage.

 

[DreadedOne]

Huh?



www.baltimoresun.com/gambling/ny-drew-brees-passing-record-betting-implication-20191220-d2sfiwtjfnfebamg3mo3n34dpq-story.html

No Dome, No Problem: Drew Brees Is Undervalued by the Betting Market Outdoors | The Action Network

Drew Brees has performed better against-the-spread in outdoor games than in dome games, contrary to popular belief among sports bettors.

www.actionnetwork.com

Note the heading of the second article is misleading as it talks about Brees’ performance in terms of match totals markets and against the spread as set by betting agencies, not his stats in general.

Brady by comparison has played fewer than 30 career games indoors. It clearly has a material impact on the statistics.

If memory serves me...the articles skewed those statistics to include playing at home...where every QB has better statistics. Compare his stats on road games indoors and out, they are the same.

Statistics have to be normalized, you have to account for the fact that crowd noise affects QB play, ask anyone who plays in the dome.

 

[DreadedOne]

Well that explains why they're in third place in the AFC East with a 4-6 record this year then.

Ok, he hired his QB last minute, Covid, give them time. His system will prevail.

 

[DreadedOne]

Agreed, it is fine. My argument is his overall body of work in those SB's is a pretty good indication that he is the best, and both Brees and Brady's regular season career stats are comparable. Nothing sticks out to say one's body of work in the regular season is better than the others. But, fair or not, that is not how the greatest players are judged, I get that folks don't like or agree with that and that's fine.

I mean if Brady stunk it up in all of those games I would feel differently, but he didn't. In the end it's just my 2 cents and a fun debate....

I think people are agreeing with this logic, I am at least, they are comparable, which is why his 6 superbowls are team metrics and shouldn't make you think one is better than the other, it's impossible to tell, but hey...

 

[Poison]

If memory serves me...the articles skewed those statistics to include playing at home...where every QB has better statistics. Compare his stats on road games indoors and out, they are the same.

Statistics have to be normalized, you have to account for the fact that crowd noise affects QB play, ask anyone who plays in the dome.

Again, this is incorrect.

Brady has a better stats line playing indoors in regular season games as opposed to outdoors. These stats are a little dated (from a point in time when he'd played 17 career dome games, where that number is now up to 22), but the point remains.

Tom Brady's stats in a dome are even better than his usual stats

Super Bowl LI is going down in Houston's NRG Stadium - and if Brady's history in domed stadiums is an indication, he's in for a monster game.

www.patspulpit.com

In any case, weather conditions have a 4.5 differential in terms of QBR across the board. In the case of Drew, his QBR is 5.8 lower in outdoor games. And those numbers are worse again in cold weather.




A straight-up comparison between contemporaries which doesn't account for this as a variable is a flawed approach.

Anyway, my point is that actual Super Bowl wins - the things that people play the game for - count more than any marginal difference between individual stat lines given the variables I've outlined (playing indoors vs in the cold, passing yards in junk time trailing an opponent's two-score lead (see 2012, 14, 16), etc.). Nothing in this thread has coherently dissuaded me from this view.

 

[latechsaint26]

I’m not sure that your subjective opinion will be sufficient to displace Brady’s objective records when it comes to determining these things. Face it, when lists are compiled of the greatest QBs ever, Brady will stand alone. I don’t like him personally but he’s the closest thing to the NFL’s version of Michael Jordan (and nobody would argue with a straight face that because he had a few lackluster years with the Wizards - by his own standards - that he’s not the GOAT).

Brees has done everything better in regards to his specific position of QB.

Hes been more productive with less, he’s had more on his shoulders, and just hasn’t had the support.

To sit there and just say that Brady is objectively better is silly. It just means that you are taking a Super Bowl ring, which could’ve been won by say a Malcolm Butler pick or a tuck rule. But 5000 yard seasons? 80,000 in the air?
That’s on Drew Brees.

 

[Poison]

Brees has done everything better in regards to his specific position of QB.

Hes been more productive with less, he’s had more on his shoulders, and just hasn’t had the support.

To sit there and just say that Brady is objectively better is silly. It just means that you are taking a Super Bowl ring, which could’ve been won by say a Malcolm Butler pick or a tuck rule. But 5000 yard seasons? 80,000 in the air?
That’s on Drew Brees.

Brady threw for 5000+ yards playing outdoors in a 13-3 season in 2011. That same year was the only year Drew exceeded 5000 yards at the same time as possessing a winning record. The other four times he surpassed 5000 yards, the Saints were 8-8 or worse.

If Brady was leading the Saints in the Dome during those historically bad years on D where we had to be pass-happy to stay in the game (often with opponents who would allow intermediate yardage to keep our offence in front of them), then he would have passed for more than 5000 yards too.

Those 5000 yard seasons are a reason why Drew is a great QB. But they can’t logically be relied on as a reason why he is better QB than Brady.

Conversely, Brady’s output in playoffs and particular Super Bowls tell the story of a clutch QB. Sad to say but if we win the #1 seed this year and don’t at least make the Super Bowl, the narrative will be, to a degree, that Drew hasn’t been up to scratch when it matters. Thankfully he at least has one SB MVP but another early playoff exit will certainly be a case of what could have been.

 

[latechsaint26]

Brady threw for 5000+ yards playing outdoors in a 13-3 season in 2011. That same year was the only year Drew exceeded 5000 yards at the same time as possessing a winning record. The other four times he surpassed 5000 yards, the Saints were 8-8 or worse.

If Brady was leading the Saints in the Dome during those historically bad years on D where we had to be pass-happy to stay in the game (often with opponents who would allow intermediate yardage to keep our offence in front of them), then he would have passed for more than 5000 yards too.

Those 5000 yard seasons are a reason why Drew is a great QB. But they can’t logically be relied on as a reason why he is better QB than Brady.

Conversely, Brady’s output in playoffs and particular Super Bowls tell the story of a clutch QB. Sad to say but if we win the #1 seed this year and don’t at least make the Super Bowl, the narrative will be, to a degree, that Drew hasn’t been up to scratch when it matters. Thankfully he at least has one SB MVP but another early playoff exit will certainly be a case of what could have been.

So Brees, who’s super bowl performance was better than any of Brady’s, also should’ve won a ton of playoff games (where he did what he was supposed to do in clutch time) but instead of having every break ever, his team failed him.
Brady played outdoors, but he also played the bills, jets, and Dolphins and was guaranteed a homer playoff game every single year.

You know that you would win more of the big prizes at the fair if you played more times? Does that mean you’re better at carnival games or does it mean you played more times?

I just think less of people that have watched both men play and think Brady is better. Brady can’t hold Brees’ jock.

And Brees 8-8 and 7-9 teams should’ve been picking in the Top 5.

He alone was keeping them in playoff contention.