Tom Bradys stats against team with a good defensive front line (2 Viewers)

[Poison]

So Brees, who’s super bowl performance was better than any of Brady’s,

By what metric exactly? Brees was excellent in 2009, for sure. He went 32/39 for 288 yards and 2 touchdowns. But people in this thread have spent ages saying the only reason the Pats won in 2014 was Malcolm Butler when Brady went 37 of 50, 328 yards and four touchdowns. He has put up better numbers than Drew did in 2009 in three of the four Super Bowls where Brady was named MVP.

Where’s the equivalent “oh it was Tracy Porter” or “it was the onside kick” narrative?

also should’ve won a ton of playoff games (where he did what he was supposed to do in clutch time) but instead of having every break ever, his team failed him.

How did the rest of the team fail him when he threw the match-losing INT in the 2018 NFCCG? Or when we scored zero points in the first three quarters of the divisional round game v Seattle? That’s 2 of our 4 most recent playoff exits, without beginning to discuss how we couldn’t get any offence rolling v a middle of the road Minnesota on our home deck in 2019.

Brady played outdoors, but he also played the bills, jets, and Dolphins and was guaranteed a homer playoff game every single year.

Yawn. Read the thread. The AFC East was a stronger division than the 2009 NFC South in all but one of the years the Pats won the SB (2018). Of his 41 playoff games, Brady has come up against an AFC East opponent twice (the Jets). Tired argument, little substance.

Brady can’t hold Brees’ jock.

Lol. This is such a dumb take. The collective inferiority complex some Saints fans have with respect to Brady and the Pats is ridiculous. When his career is over, Brees is an undeniable first ballot HOFer. One of the greatest of all-time. But Brady has six rings, 30 playoff wins at a tick under 75% and four SB MVPs. Brees has 1 ring, 1 MVP, and close to a decade of less than stellar post-season performances. Yes, he has had fewer opportunities, but he hasn’t seized the moment when it has arisen.

The insistence of our fans that our guy is better because “regular season passing yards” or “throwing mechanics” to the exclusion of all else is loser talk. It meekly tries to elevate generally irrelevant or qualified statistics to a level they don’t deserve to give a veneer of legitimacy to an argument that doesn’t withstand informed scrutiny. We need to win when it counts more than once before we start holding our guy out as the best ever to play the position.

 

[sfidc3]

I just think less of people that have watched both men play and think Brady is better. Brady can’t hold Brees’ jock.

I think less of people who make ridiculous statements like above, it adds zero to any credible argument....

 

[St. Pike]

I didn't read the entire thread, but I do believe DB is the Goat. He does everything incredibly well. Marino would be an easy #2. The guy had no running game and no defense, but was an incredible QB. Brees is literally the only guy that compares, but barely. Manning, Brady , Elway, and Montana would all be about the same level. After that, we get a drop off.

The problem with the QB position is that they get too much credit for success and too much blame for failure. This effects people's judgement of their overall performances.

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[latechsaint26]

I think less of people who make ridiculous statements like above, it adds zero to any credible argument....

Yes, I’m being a bit ridiculous. It’s more fun that way.

I don’t think people actually should get their panties in a wad because someone values statistical production over win production. Both sides have an extremely valid argument and it’s 100% subjective either way.

Poison can but 100% right and so can I.But fake arguing about it dramatically sure is more entertaining.

 

[St. Pike]

Of course this is subjective. It is staggering on how people can be so sure of their own argument when it is based on subjective interpretation of data. ironically, the "real" GOAT may not be either of them. As I alluded to in my last post, Marino may be the GOAT. Imagine Brady and Brees without a running game, without a defense, and sometimes without a top class OL and see what they do. marino got overlooked in his time because of the lack of SB (much less wining any of them).


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[DreadedOne]

By what metric exactly? Brees was excellent in 2009, for sure. He went 32/39 for 288 yards and 2 touchdowns. But people in this thread have spent ages saying the only reason the Pats won in 2014 was Malcolm Butler when Brady went 37 of 50, 328 yards and four touchdowns. He has put up better numbers than Drew did in 2009 in three of the four Super Bowls where Brady was named MVP.

Where’s the equivalent “oh it was Tracy Porter” or “it was the onside kick” narrative?




How did the rest of the team fail him when he threw the match-losing INT in the 2018 NFCCG? Or when we scored zero points in the first three quarters of the divisional round game v Seattle? That’s 2 of our 4 most recent playoff exits, without beginning to discuss how we couldn’t get any offence rolling v a middle of the road Minnesota on our home deck in 2019.



Yawn. Read the thread. The AFC East was a stronger division than the 2009 NFC South in all but one of the years the Pats won the SB (2018). Of his 41 playoff games, Brady has come up against an AFC East opponent twice (the Jets). Tired argument, little substance.



Lol. This is such a dumb take. The collective inferiority complex some Saints fans have with respect to Brady and the Pats is ridiculous. When his career is over, Brees is an undeniable first ballot HOFer. One of the greatest of all-time. But Brady has six rings, 30 playoff wins at a tick under 75% and four SB MVPs. Brees has 1 ring, 1 MVP, and close to a decade of less than stellar post-season performances. Yes, he has had fewer opportunities, but he hasn’t seized the moment when it has arisen.

The insistence of our fans that our guy is better because “regular season passing yards” or “throwing mechanics” to the exclusion of all else is loser talk. It meekly tries to elevate generally irrelevant or qualified statistics to a level they don’t deserve to give a veneer of legitimacy to an argument that doesn’t withstand informed scrutiny. We need to win when it counts more than once before we start holding our guy out as the best ever to play the position.

Who cares if their delusional, and Brady really is better, who cares, frankly, I'll stand by my arguement, you're all wrong...no way to tell unless you could magically swap them and see how they fare. Ok, xbox is not better than playstation, like what you like, it's ok for people to disagree, really, it is.

 

[sfidc3]

Of course this is subjective. It is staggering on how people can be so sure of their own argument when it is based on subjective interpretation of data. ironically, the "real" GOAT may not be either of them. As I alluded to in my last post, Marino may be the GOAT. Imagine Brady and Brees without a running game, without a defense, and sometimes without a top class OL and see what they do. marino got overlooked in his time because of the lack of SB (much less wining any of them).


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I think it's near impossible to compare QB's from different eras. The game Marino played in was different than the one Brees/Brady played in.

That said Marino threw a lot of INT's, his career TD/INT ration is 1.66-1

Brees is 2.35-1
Brady is 3-1

You could argue that Marino played at a time where the officiating was actually less favorable to offenses but in the end as DO said unless they could switch place in time, we will never know. But I think both Brady and Brees are better than Marino, certainly they were better for a longer period of time...IMO

In short, I don't see anyone changing anyone else's mind in this thread...its all good...

 

[sfidc3]

Yes, I’m being a bit ridiculous. It’s more fun that way.

I don’t think people actually should get their panties in a wad because someone values statistical production over win production. Both sides have an extremely valid argument and it’s 100% subjective either way.

Poison can but 100% right and so can I.But fake arguing about it dramatically sure is more entertaining.

I hear you, that's fine. Usually when someone resorts to the "can't hold the other player's jock" it means they've run out of ammunition and are losing the argument

 

[SaintsFanInLA]

Meanwhile, belicheat took down the ravens with Scam newton...

Wonder if the talking heads will EVER start to realize that brady never was the GOAT. Yeah, he's got a bunch of rings, but trent dilfer had a ring too... He just was in a favorable position for a very long time.

Don't get me wrong: Brady is a great QB, but best ever?

Nah.

WHAT?!?! LOLOLOL.
Come on, bro. Six Super Bowl Victories. SIX. In 20years, they won the AFCE like 16-18 times and went to 9 Super Bowls. It's crazy. Now, BB defenses were beastly and if Brees had those defenses, he'd probably have 3-4 more rings. But to dismiss Brady's importance in those rings is crazy.

I also think it's patently unfair to compare Brady NOW to his accomplishments. He's in a different system, with a different coach, different players, different nomenclature, and a different culture. This is almost like saying when MJ was with the Wizards, it proves he wasn't the G.O.A.T. when he was with the Chicago Bulls.

 

[St. Pike]

I think it's near impossible to compare QB's from different eras. The game Marino played in was different than the one Brees/Brady played in.

That said Marino threw a lot of INT's, his career TD/INT ration is 1.66-1

Brees is 2.35-1
Brady is 3-1

You could argue that Marino played at a time where the officiating was actually less favorable to offenses but in the end as DO said unless they could switch place in time, we will never know. But I think both Brady and Brees are better than Marino, certainly they were better for a longer period of time...IMO

In short, I don't see anyone changing anyone else's mind in this thread...its all good...

You say it is impossible, but then chose one data point and a superficial analysis Just a small illustration. If you were to rank the quality of teams each had played on, who would be the top and the bottom. Hmm, Yeah superficial.

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[St. Pike]

WHAT?!?! LOLOLOL.
Come on, bro. Six Super Bowl Victories. SIX. In 20years, they won the AFCE like 16-18 times and went to 9 Super Bowls. It's crazy. Now, BB defenses were beastly and if Brees had those defenses, he'd probably have 3-4 more rings. But to dismiss Brady's importance in those rings is crazy

What you wrote is silly. No one "dismissed." Championships are a team accomplishments. Recognizing this fact is not a dismissal of an individual within a team. Are you going to give "x" LB on those teams credit for being the greatest MLB in football because he won "x" SBs? I don't think so. Another illustration s the Dome Patrol. A LB corps that s universally considered to be the best LB corps to have played. Yet, ...They never won a a playoff game much less a SB.

If you want to figure the best at any position, you have to go deeper than lazy statistics quoting and titles.

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[sfidc3]

You say it is impossible, but then chose one data point and a superficial analysis Just a small illustration. If you were to rank the quality of teams each had played on, who would be the top and the bottom. Hmm, Yeah superficial.

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I stated two facts, it is impossible to compare QB's from different eras in any meaningful way and Marino did throw a lot of picks. I also said the game wasn't so slanted towards the offense. Which, if you had just done some superficial analysis you may have picked up that I was implying that could likely be the reason he threw more picks....you know, instead of needlessly ranting....

Oh and the Dolphins win/loss with Marino was 147-93...Brees is 140-95 with the Saints... not a big difference really. Marino had some good teams around him, most of the time....

 

[SigFreudianSlip]

That’s how the Giants got him in the bowl. Back when he was truly magical. Front four pressure kills Tom.
In his defense it kills most QB’s.

Football is won on the offensive and defensive lines.

 

[Saint Kamara]

Again, this is incorrect.

Brady has a better stats line playing indoors in regular season games as opposed to outdoors. These stats are a little dated (from a point in time when he'd played 17 career dome games, where that number is now up to 22), but the point remains.

Tom Brady's stats in a dome are even better than his usual stats

Super Bowl LI is going down in Houston's NRG Stadium - and if Brady's history in domed stadiums is an indication, he's in for a monster game.

www.patspulpit.com

In any case, weather conditions have a 4.5 differential in terms of QBR across the board. In the case of Drew, his QBR is 5.8 lower in outdoor games. And those numbers are worse again in cold weather.




A straight-up comparison between contemporaries which doesn't account for this as a variable is a flawed approach.

Anyway, my point is that actual Super Bowl wins - the things that people play the game for - count more than any marginal difference between individual stat lines given the variables I've outlined (playing indoors vs in the cold, passing yards in junk time trailing an opponent's two-score lead (see 2012, 14, 16), etc.). Nothing in this thread has coherently dissuaded me from this view.

Great job here. As a fantatic of statistical comparisons, I can appreciate your effort.

One caveat, it would be nice to have extracted home vs away games.

As an example, in the chart showing QBs playing outdoors, Rodgers, Wilson and Brady for instance have their numbers skewed positively because their home games are outdoors. In Brees' case, it's an amalgamation of early career struggles while with San Diego and all his road games while with New Orleans.

 

[St. Pike]

I stated two facts, it is impossible to compare QB's from different eras in any meaningful way and Marino did throw a lot of picks. I also said the game wasn't so slanted towards the offense. Which, if you had just done some superficial analysis you may have picked up that I was implying that could likely be the reason he threw more picks....you know, instead of needlessly ranting....

Oh and the Dolphins win/loss with Marino was 147-93...Brees is 140-95 with the Saints... not a big difference really. Marino had some good teams around him, most of the time....

I am not the one ranting. I have no reasons to rant. I do not obsessed over who is or isn't the "best" of all times. It is highly subjective and people rarely apply the same logic (yes, everyone).

I was demonstrating how you are actually no better and is just as subjective. The mere fact that you stated that you cannot compare meant the second part when you actually did moot. Ignoring your first comment as you did, I made the same poor argument to demonstrate the silliness of yours. I'm an optimist so I am hoping this response does not go over your head like the last one.

Just to be clear.... stats are a poor indicator. In a team sport everything is contingent not on the ability of the players around you, but also the quality of the players of your opponent. You can add coaching; would Bres be Brees without Payton? Moreover, any changes in the rules or changes in the interpretation f the rules changes the dynamic as well. This is not to say you cannot rank players based on mechanics, accuracy, leadership, situational awareness, but these are difficult to quantify. You can rank, but any ranking would be purely for entertainment. Based on the criteria above, Brees, Marino, Brady, Elway, Montana, and Peyton can all be considered. You also have some earlier "greats" like Unitas, Otto Graham, etc... who based on their era would never be considered based simply on the era they played in. What is more entertaining, the rankings or the people "ranting" abut those rankings?

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