Trans athletes make great gains, yet resentment still flares (1 Viewer)

Mr. Sparkle

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Across the U.S. and in many places abroad, transgender athletes are breaking barriers in high school, college and pro sports and being embraced by teammates and fans. But resentments can still flare when transgender women start winning and dominating their sport.

Exhibit A is a recent public exchange involving tennis great Martina Navratilova, who came out as a lesbian in 1981 and is a longtime gay-rights activist. She now stands accused of being “transphobic” after asserting that many transgender women — even if they’ve undergone hormone treatment — have an unfair advantage over other female competitors.

“A man can decide to be female, take hormones if required by whatever sporting organization is concerned, win everything in sight and perhaps earn a small fortune, and then reverse his decision and go back to making babies if he so desires,” Navratilova wrote in a Feb. 17 op-ed for The Sunday Times of London. “It’s insane and it’s cheating.”

I find the headline and overall tone of the story to be a classic example of media bias but its an interesting phenomenon.

If my teenage daughter was competing against a teenage boy undergoing hormone therapy I'm not sure I'd consider that a fair competition. I consider that a good faith question that has to do with biology, not "transphobic resentment."

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I know many biological females who are much stronger and faster than many biological males.
I'd be willing to bet that any female athlete could smoke me on a track, lift more than me, you name it, I have no doubt they would outperform me. That doesn't mean that I don't have natural, physiological advantages that they can never possess. Put us on a level playing field, with the same amount of training, the large majority of them wouldn't stand a chance.
 

SystemShock

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This is by no means for everyone.
Does the individual have a uterus?
Yes = individual is female.
No = individual is not female.

Of course, there are abnormal cases, (hermafrodites, intersexed), so it doesn't apply to everyone, but it does apply to the overwhelming majority of individuals.

I know many biological females who are much stronger and faster than many biological males.
Sure. We all know them. However, in sports competition, individuals are matched as close as possible to their physiological and skill equals. That's why fighting sports, for example, have weight classes that differ by 5 lbs. of body weight.

So sure, Amanda Nunes, at 145 lbs, she can probably kick the arse of most any man you know. But if she goes against Max Holloway, she gets destroyed.
 
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coldseat

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I wonder how many girls sporting events this is even an issue in? It seems like we spend a lot of time debating this, but it doesn't seem like there are that many school aged transgender girls in sports.

I also wonder in what percentage of girls sporting events where transgender girls participate in that they end up winning the competition.

I haven't read through the whole thread, so I don't know if this information is already out there, but maybe adding some metrics would help clarify how big of a problem this actually is or isn't.
 

tenordas

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Does the individual have a uterus?
Yes = individual is female.
No = individual is not female.

Of course, there are abnormal cases, (hermafrodites, intersexed), so it doesn't apply to everyone, but it does apply for the overwhelming majority of individuals.


Sure. We all know them. However, in sports competition, individuals are matched as close as possible to their physiological and skill equals. That's why fighting sports, for example, have weight classes that differ by 5 lbs. of body weight.

So sure, Amanda Nunes, at 145 lbs, she can probably kick the arse of most any man you know. But if she goes against Max Holloway, she gets destroyed.
Exactly. And this is the same as Billy Bob, a 325 lb male saying he identifies as a 175 lb male so he should be able to compete in the 170-190 lb weight class in wrestling. That's a grossly unfair advantage being give to him.

It's just simple physical biology. On average, females have less muscle than males, so it's straight forward unfair to have individuals with male musculature compete against individuals with female musculature and pretend that is a level playing field. It's every bit as unbalanced and unfair as having people competing out of their weight class.
 
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Dago

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I wonder how many girls sporting events this is even an issue in? It seems like we spend a lot of time debating this, but it doesn't seem like there are that many school aged transgender girls in sports.

I also wonder in what percentage of girls sporting events where transgender girls participate in that they end up winning the competition.

I haven't read through the whole thread, so I don't know if this information is already out there, but maybe adding some metrics would help clarify how big of a problem this actually is or isn't.
that is a good question
 

guidomerkinsrules

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I wonder how many girls sporting events this is even an issue in? It seems like we spend a lot of time debating this, but it doesn't seem like there are that many school aged transgender girls in sports.

I also wonder in what percentage of girls sporting events where transgender girls participate in that they end up winning the competition.

I haven't read through the whole thread, so I don't know if this information is already out there, but maybe adding some metrics would help clarify how big of a problem this actually is or isn't.
If I remember, we chewed over these questions a bit (no definitive answer bc small sample size)
I think the other issue is us trying to operate under a idea of ‘fairness’ and ‘level playing field’ - no such thing exists. Someone always has a competitive advantage
Now our impulse is have sports competitive - BUT we don’t make them competitive as possible
We don’t make usain bolt start 2 ft behind the other racers
We don’t change the outfield fence depending on who’s batting
We don’t give disadvantaged schools more money so they can complete with rich schools
And mostly we’re fine with a level of advantage/disadvantage

But now we’re planting a flag on some statistically tiny disadvantageous events and making them way more important than someone being able to self-identify
And I’m not sure if fairness in sports is our driving concern here
 
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If I remember, we chewed over these questions a bit (no definitive answer bc small sample size)
I think the other issue is us trying to operate under a idea of ‘fairness’ and ‘level playing field’ - no such thing exists. Someone always has a competitive advantage
Now our impulse is have sports competitive - BUT we don’t make them competitive as possible
We don’t make usain bolt start 2 ft behind the other racers
We don’t change the outfield fence depending on who’s batting
We don’t give disadvantaged schools more money so they can complete with rich schools
And mostly we’re fine with a level of advantage/disadvantage

But now we’re planting a flag on some statistically tiny disadvantageous events and making them way more important than someone being able to self-identify
And I’m not sure if fairness in sports is our driving concern here
If that's the argument you want to make then e shouldn't have gender classes at all. Everyone competes against everyone.
 

SystemShock

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If I remember, we chewed over these questions a bit (no definitive answer bc small sample size)
I think the other issue is us trying to operate under a idea of ‘fairness’ and ‘level playing field’ - no such thing exists. Someone always has a competitive advantage
Now our impulse is have sports competitive - BUT we don’t make them competitive as possible
We don’t make usain bolt start 2 ft behind the other racers
We don’t change the outfield fence depending on who’s batting
We don’t give disadvantaged schools more money so they can complete with rich schools
All of those you listed, they are false equivalencies.

But now we’re planting a flag on some statistically tiny disadvantageous events and making them way more important than someone being able to self-identify
I can self-identify as a Giant Schnauzer, but I guarantee you Westminster is not going to let me show in the working group.

But seriously, yet again, self identify as whatever you want. But to me, it comes down to protecting the individuals who are born with an uterus and Fallopian tubes.

And I’m not sure if fairness in sports is our driving concern here
Yes it is. Fairness to biological females.
 

guidomerkinsrules

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All of those you listed, they are false equivalencies.


I can self-identify as a Giant Schnauzer, but I guarantee you Westminster is not going to let me show in the working group.

But seriously, yet again, self identify as whatever you want. But to me, it comes down to protecting the individuals who are born with an uterus and Fallopian tubes.


Yes it is. Fairness to biological females.
I don’t remember a big hue and cry when the USWNT trounced Thailand
not trying to draw any sort of equivalency - just pointing out that we think we’re arguing for fairness we’re not really
 
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I don’t remember a big hue and cry when the USWNT trounced Thailand
not trying to draw any sort of equivalency - just pointing out that we think we’re arguing for fairness we’re not really
Yes, we are. I just don't think you're seeing it because your empathy for people in those situations is outweighing your sense of fairness. It's certainly a noble sentiment, I just don't agree with it.
 

guidomerkinsrules

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Yes, we are. I just don't think you're seeing it because your empathy for people in those situations is outweighing your sense of fairness. It's certainly a noble sentiment, I just don't agree with it.
These trans athletes instances have to be something like 0.01% of athletic events (if that high) but we care more about this EXTREMELY rare fairness even though there are way more occurrences of Bama vs Morgan St or the decade of dominance by the Lady Huskies b-ball team or the Dream Team in the olympics or any of a myriad of unfair unlevel playing fields
 

SystemShock

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I don’t remember a big hue and cry when the USWNT trounced Thailand
Do the USWNT players have testicles and Thailand players ovaries?

Stop it with the false equivalencies.

not trying to draw any sort of equivalency
Riiiiiiiiight.

just pointing out that we think we’re arguing for fairness we’re not really
Yes, yes we are. But you don't see it past your wokeness.

These trans athletes instances have to be something like 0.01% of athletic events (if that high) but we care more about this EXTREMELY rare fairness even though there are way more occurrences of Bama vs Morgan St or the decade of dominance by the Lady Huskies b-ball team or the Dream Team in the olympics or any of a myriad of unfair unlevel playing fields
And more false equivalencies.

Surely, Alabama would beat Morgan St. more often than not ... probably Morgan St won't beat Alabama in 1000 years... however, Morgan St's QB, DJ Golatt is 6'3' 225 lbs, and Tua is 6'1" 218 lbs: their physiology is the same, they are both men, with similar muscular mass, and testosterone production.

If you go down the line, position by position, you will find that both teams PHYSICALLY are roughly evenly matched.
 
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Arathrael

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I don’t remember a big hue and cry when the USWNT trounced Thailand
not trying to draw any sort of equivalency - just pointing out that we think we’re arguing for fairness we’re not really
I understand the argument. I'm not sure why other people seem to be getting so confused with it.

If the argument starts with fairness (i.e. "We think sport has to be fair, therefore..."), it applies to every factor that affects fairness (which does not mean that every factor is literally the same; only that they all affect fairness).

And if the argument does not apply to every factor that affects fairness, then it's not really about fairness (i.e. it turns out we don't necessarily think sport has to be fair after all).

I'd also add that it would be good if we could discuss this topic without straying into ignorant and offensive prejudice. I don't know if we have any trans posters here, but I don't think they'd appreciate seeing their identity compared to someone pretending to be a dog.
 
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Humperdoo

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I find the headline and overall tone of the story to be a classic example of media bias but its an interesting phenomenon.

If my teenage daughter was competing against a teenage boy undergoing hormone therapy I'm not sure I'd consider that a fair competition. I consider that a good faith question that has to do with biology, not "transphobic resentment."

112352
Nailed it with your last paragraph imo.
I try so hard to be open minded and tolerant to the views of others, but I struggle mightily on this one. To me, anyone who cannot see how unfair this is in athletics, is beyond stupid. When it comes to this subject.
 

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