Trans athletes make great gains, yet resentment still flares (1 Viewer)

Mr. Sparkle

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Across the U.S. and in many places abroad, transgender athletes are breaking barriers in high school, college and pro sports and being embraced by teammates and fans. But resentments can still flare when transgender women start winning and dominating their sport.

Exhibit A is a recent public exchange involving tennis great Martina Navratilova, who came out as a lesbian in 1981 and is a longtime gay-rights activist. She now stands accused of being “transphobic” after asserting that many transgender women — even if they’ve undergone hormone treatment — have an unfair advantage over other female competitors.

“A man can decide to be female, take hormones if required by whatever sporting organization is concerned, win everything in sight and perhaps earn a small fortune, and then reverse his decision and go back to making babies if he so desires,” Navratilova wrote in a Feb. 17 op-ed for The Sunday Times of London. “It’s insane and it’s cheating.”

I find the headline and overall tone of the story to be a classic example of media bias but its an interesting phenomenon.

If my teenage daughter was competing against a teenage boy undergoing hormone therapy I'm not sure I'd consider that a fair competition. I consider that a good faith question that has to do with biology, not "transphobic resentment."

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Oye

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if you don't keep up you are apparently a Nazi.
I don’t find this helpful either. Not sure why the insistence like this is supposed to be taken seriously. Has that happened in this thread? It’s long and old but I don’t recall it.

it seems like more manufactured victimization. Thanks don’t recall anyone calling anyone a nazi so why act like you’ve been called one?

And woke remains a lame term. No matter who is using it. Maybe at one point it indicated something but whatever and whenever that was it’s history
 

Oye

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There’s no real address to the concept of “fairness”. Let’s say there are three basketball teams. High school. Based on teams I’ve seen.

Team A has three NCAA bound prep players (Florida, Columbia, and a mid major)

Team B has two (Baylor and UConn).

Team C has none and barely has anyone who could actually play good basketball.

team A beats team b by 40.
Team B beats team c by 50.
team a beats team c by 80.

the least “fair game” is a vs c.

but if I tell you that team b is an elite girls team, all of a sudden, game 2 between b and c is unfair. Except the girls would
Demolish them.

again, it’s seems we are okay with some degree of not fairness.

as I’ve said before I don’t have an answer. I don’t know the answer. But this strict thing about “fairness” isnt an absolute.
And this isn’t merely a thought exercise or “waxing poetic” whatever the hell thsts supposed to mean as a disarming criticism.
 

Dago

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yea, I think that there are potentially analogs that help and some that don't - I'm not sure we could ever really land on an 'equivalency' that's absolutely valid, but surely some are more illustratively constructive than this

I find this concept of 'fairness' interesting.

Is 'fairness' strictly a matter of physiology - even restricting it to human beings of the same size?

I'm 6'6" 220 lbs. I'm in decent shape. But there are a *lot* of 6'6", 220 lb NFLers who are absolute monsters. So, do we talk about 40 times? Do we talk about verticals? Do we talk about age? Do we talk about body fat percentages? Or is it merely enough to say: Both are Men and Both are Same Size, Therefore Equal.

That seems mightily reductive if we're talking 'fairness'

Another example.

I coach high school basketball. We are a pretty good team and have been for a few years. This year, we are 30-6 and looking at a top 2 seed at the provincial tournament. But we are a high school team - not a Prep team.

When we play a Prep team, we play much stronger players. One of the players we play against is the #1 or #2 ranked high school basketball player of the class of 2023 (Elijah Fisher - the other top 2 is LeBron James, Jr). He's had university offers since he was in middle school. He's on a team with other players who are going to NCAA Div-I schools.

Those scores in our games are typically of the 90-50 finish.

Those games aren't "fair" even though we have 13-15 players, same age, same gender, not quite the same size (they are bigger overall).

The concept of "fair" being championed here is more complex and I wonder if it's the right criterion. We still play the game. The outcome will always be the same. It certainly doesn't 'feel' like a 'fair' game.

So it leads me to believe that maybe there's something else here. As I've said before, I don't know what the answer is, but 'fair' doesn't strike me as the actual issue. Or maybe it is 'fairness' and we're actually okay with more arbitrariness re: fairness than we actually understand.
these are all false equivalencies.

the only valid comparison would be in comparing athletes at the top level of a given sport, not prep kids because it eliminates so many variables that you are not considering such as training just for one. Athletes at the top of their sports have access to the same equipment and cutting edge technology in training so there are far less variables which is why there is very little difference in the times of olympic sprinters....these are people who have been training their entire lives, have access to the top training, and have similar levels of passion and desire for their sport

In order to make any valid comparison, you have to remove as many potential variables as possible
 

Arathrael

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What you can't change is your genetic make-up.
I'll just note here that there's increasing evidence that there's a genetic component to gender dysphoria (for example, monozygotic twins are significantly more likely than dizygotic twins to have the same gender identity disorder). Research is continuing to identify the precise genes involved, but associations have already been identified between gender dysphoria and several alleles and genotypes.

Some posters may want to take that on board.
 
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Oye

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But you are equal in that you both have the same naturally occurring potential.
Michael Jordan and I do not.

taking your point however,Caster Semenya has more naturally occurring potential because of more naturally occurring testosterone production.

would you allow her to race women?
 

Oye

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these are all false equivalencies.

the only valid comparison would be in comparing athletes at the top level of a given sport, not prep kids because it eliminates so many variables that you are not considering such as training just for one. Athletes at the top of their sports have access to the same equipment and cutting edge technology in training so there are far less variables which is why there is very little difference in the times of olympic sprinters....these are people who have been training their entire lives, have access to the top training, and have similar levels of passion and desire for their sport

In order to make any valid comparison, you have to remove as many potential variables as possible
So when Usain Bolt, the the height of his success, won all of those races against people who couldn’t beat him, and got thoroughly demolished, those were all absolutely “fair”?

as for the notion of false equivalencies, I’m merely talking about the concept of fairness. It’s used as a defense but it feels like we’re talking abiut something else.

so when reading your comment I feel like we’re not even talking about the same thing
 

Dago

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So when Usain Bolt, the the height of his success, won all of those races against people who couldn’t beat him, and got thoroughly demolished, those were all absolutely “fair”?

as for the notion of false equivalencies, I’m merely talking about the concept of fairness. It’s used as a defense but it feels like we’re talking abiut something else.

so when reading your comment I feel like we’re not even talking about the same thing
you are trying to make an argument that is completely subjective when most of us have made an argument based on science and facts

also, questions have been asked of those supporting transgender athletes competing with women that you all refuse to answer
 

rajncajn

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Michael Jordan and I do not.

taking your point however,Caster Semenya has more naturally occurring potential because of more naturally occurring testosterone production.

would you allow her to race women?
Yes, you do. If you played basketball all your life and had the dedication, drive and coaching that he had, you have the potential to be just as good. Not very many can realize that potential and so not many have. But take the best female player if the WNBA, with the same height, weight and training and there's no way she could possibly compete with Jordan and very likely not you either.
 

rajncajn

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I'll just note here that there's increasing evidence that there's a genetic component to gender dysphoria (for example, monozygotic twins are significantly more likely than dizygotic twins to have the same gender identity disorder). Research is continuing to identify the precise genes involved, but associations have already been identified between gender dysphoria and several alleles and genotypes.

Some posters may want to take that on board.
Layman's terms please. It sounds like you are trying to make an argument that gender dysphoria is a genetic issue rather than a personal choice. I don't think anyone here is arguing against that and I don't see how it should have any bearing on what should be considered fair, not to that person mind you, but to the people that he or she would be competing against.
 

tomwaits

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I don’t find this helpful either. Not sure why the insistence like this is supposed to be taken seriously. Has that happened in this thread? It’s long and old but I don’t recall it.

it seems like more manufactured victimization. Thanks don’t recall anyone calling anyone a nazi so why act like you’ve been called one?

And woke remains a lame term. No matter who is using it. Maybe at one point it indicated something but whatever and whenever that was it’s history
Oh no, not in this thread that I have seen, but you don't have to look hard at all on Twitter, Facebook, etc to see examples. I have heard multiple pod casters like Dave Smith (Jewish libertarian comedian) and Joe Rogan say they have been called nazis for their position on trans athletes. There are also multiple accounts of people getting banned for (hate speech) making statements (that I think are very reasonable) against ideas such as children being given hormones by their parents to transition them.

Why is woke a lame term? because you don't like it? I have no problem with people using the term to ridicule the SJW crowd in their absurdities.
 
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SystemShock

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I don't know what the difference is. We are saying that people are allowed to identify as whatever gender they wish or no gender at all
Why not do the same with race or ethnicity?
If we have to fully accept that people are what they feel they are, and we have to accept that an XY who feels like an XX is indeed an XX without exception, then we must accept that someone who feels part of a particular ethnicity is indeed of that ethnicity. The color of your skin, your hair type, etc., is dictated by chromosomes as well, no? So if we must accept XYs are XXs because they feel they are XXs, what's the argument for not accepting someone whose skin contains high levels pheomelanin yet feels their skin contains high levels of eumelanin ?

Of course, when the news of Dolezal came out, some posters who you read championing transgender "fairness" weren't cool with her.

Side note: You may or may not remember this, but many years ago, there was H.S. who had an event in which the students would vote to choose an outstanding African American student, based on a student's essay submission, which included school activities, honors, achievements, etc. A young man living in the U.S., whose family was from South Africa and white, sent in his submission. Of course, rage ensued. And this young man didn't feel he was African American, he was indeed African American.
 

SystemShock

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Michael Jordan and I do not.

taking your point however,Caster Semenya has more naturally occurring potential because of more naturally occurring testosterone production.

would you allow her to race women?
You keep on bringing Semenya on different threads, and I keep telling you the same thing: testosterone is a controlled substance in sports. Naturally occurring or not, the limit is the limit. And she's a very special case.
 

Oye

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Yes, you do. If you played basketball all your life and had the dedication, drive and coaching that he had, you have the potential to be just as good.
No, I don't. I couldn't be Michael Phelps, either. His body has a different ability to process lactic acid and he has physiological advantages, besides, that I don't.

And I have no problem with that. I have no problem with admiring and rooting for his excellence. But I am also under no delusion that all that is keeping me from his career is "dedication, drive, and coaching." His genetic potential is much greater than mine.

And more power to him.
 

Oye

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also, questions have been asked of those supporting transgender athletes competing with women that you all refuse to answer
okay, but that doesn't include me :shrug:
you are trying to make an argument that is completely subjective when most of us have made an argument based on science and facts
also, not really me. I brought up science in this thread. And I'm not disputing it. What I am saying is that the issue we all seem to think we have with this isn't actually the issue.

"Fairness" is not strictly a scientific/factual term.
 

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