Trans athletes make great gains, yet resentment still flares (4 Viewers)

[boutrous]

I don’t think that’s necessary. We can have civil discussions without making this personal.

My sincere apology. I was not trying to make a personal attack, but upon re-reading it, I can see how it came off that way. I just meant that all people's brains work differently using an example he was saying vs an example he seemed to be arguing against. Again I'm sorry if that came across offensive it really was not meant that way.

Possibly for sport, maybe there is a physical metric that can determine competitive divisions that's not soley based on genitalia. Like boxing has weight classes, maybe sport has hormone level classes. I mean that's obviously a way next level concept that could cause way more privacy issues and hurt feelings, but strictly scientifically something along those lines might be the ideal solution and then work backwards from there to find a practical solution. Now I'm not a hormone expert by any means, so maybe I'm not saying that correctly, but my point is that maybe there is some other way to classify competitiveness than to be based on gender alone.

 

[kizzy821]

My sincere apology. I was not trying to make a personal attack, but upon re-reading it, I can see how it came off that way. I just meant that all people's brains work differently using an example he was saying vs an example he seemed to be arguing against. Again I'm sorry if that came across offensive it really was not meant that way.

Possibly for sport, maybe there is a physical metric that can determine competitive divisions that's not soley based on genitalia. Like boxing has weight classes, maybe sport has hormone level classes. I mean that's obviously a way next level concept that could cause way more privacy issues and hurt feelings, but strictly scientifically something along those lines might be the ideal solution and then work backwards from there to find a practical solution. Now I'm not a hormone expert by any means, so maybe I'm not saying that correctly, but my point is that maybe there is some other way to classify competitiveness than to be based on gender alone.

It's cool. That happens a lot on this board. I say exactly what I mean, but posters think I mean something else. Especially when I pepper a post with questions.

Sometimes it's hard to get people to focus on the question (and answer) without assigning some inaccurate motive to it when all I want is insight into the WHY.

I started putting question marks on the end of sentences I wanted a response to and periods at the end of rhetorical statements, but that's too subtle.

I have to work on my syntax or something.

 

[boutrous]

It's cool. That happens a lot on this board. I say exactly what I mean, but posters think I mean something else. Especially when I pepper a post with questions.

Sometimes it's hard to get people to focus on the question (and answer) without assigning some inaccurate motive to it when all I want is insight into the WHY.

I started putting question marks on the end of sentences I wanted a response to and periods at the end of rhetorical statements, but that's too subtle.

I have to work on my syntax or something.

Yea when I read or hear things, being offended is usually the last thing that occurs to me. I usually try to pick out the merits of each statement and evaluate for truth or falsity. I can handle criticism pretty well as long as it's based on accurate facts. My wife usually has to remind me of times when I should be "offended".

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

Isn't it about time someone has the guts to speak up to say this action is setting back women's rights by 20-30 years?

Men and women are different physiologically. That's a simple, biological fact. Males have more muscle than women due to the hormone structure. To pretend that doesn't matter because of a psychological decision to identify as female is disrespectful to women. "Follow the science" as the saying gets tossed about so indiscriminately.
If a boy wants to identify as a girl, that's a choice that's made, but trampling over girls' rights to satisfy that person's every desire is unjust to women in every aspect.

I assume you didn’t go back and read the thread
This has been discussed MANY times

 

[Optimus Prime]

Nearly three-quarters of Protestant Christian pastors in the U.S. view transgender identity as "immoral," according to a new poll. The survey data comes as several conservative states push forward anti-trans legislation and as the Senate takes up the Equality Act, which would ban discrimination against LGBTQ individuals.

The American Civil Liberties Union reported earlier this month that at least two dozen states have introduced bills that would block trans women and girls from taking part in sporting activities aligning with their gender identity. More than a dozen states have also introduced bills that would ban—and in some instances criminalize—gender-affirming medical care for trans minors.

Protestant Christian leaders appear to be largely on board with this effort. New polling by Lifeway Research, the Tennessee-based publishing and distribution division of the conservative Southern Baptist Convention, shows that 72 percent of Protestant pastors believe it is "morally wrong for an individual to identify with a gender different than the sex they were born." Furthermore, 77 percent believe gender-affirming (or sex-reassignment) surgery is "morally wrong.".............

72 Percent of Protestant Pastors View Trans Identity as 'Immoral': Poll (msn.com)

 

[Optimus Prime]

I don't know if the science on this has changed but i remember a class i took in school saying that men and women think about things differently.

Literally. During brain scans of men and women being exposed to different pictures, video clips of various situations (a crying baby, a wedding , a boxing match etc.)

And the scans showed that the men were pretty consistent with other man and women with women but men and women were different from each other

If that's true I wonder what that experiment would show for transgendered people - would the scan align with their birth gender or what they identify as?

 

[Optimus Prime]

I need to go back an read the thread but my understanding is that people think that a man just says "I'm a women" and starts competing and dominating women's sports

I seem to remember hearing that hormone treatments, surgeries etc. that that isn't the case and someone who transitions to female is inline with the strengths, agilities and abilities of other female athletes in that sport

Is that right? And if so then I wouldn't see the problem in letting them compete

But it raises a question about the generational talent

Katie Ledecky. She is competing against world class swimmers. Literally the best swimmers in the world. And she is winning Olympic gold medals and she is so far ahead that there isn't another swimmer in the shot - and the shot isn't a close up

If Katie was born Kevin Ledecky and transitioned to Katie and was allowed to compete against female swimmers and performed the same way people would use that to say ,

"THAT, is EXACTLY why transgendered people shouldn't compete in sports"

It's a complicated issue and I'll admit I haven't been following it that closely and don't pretend to understand it the science, the pro's, the con's, the morals, the humanity and the fairness

But we know and understand much more than we did when 20 years ago and we'll know and understand more 10-20 years from now

What is "fair and right" today may change in the future

 

[sammymvpknight]

I don't know if the science on this has changed but i remember a class i took in school saying that men and women think about things differently.

Literally. During brain scans of men and women being exposed to different pictures, video clips of various situations (a crying baby, a wedding , a boxing match etc.)

And the scans showed that the men were pretty consistent with other man and women with women but men and women were different from each other

If that's true I wonder what that experiment would show for transgendered people - would the scan align with their birth gender or what they identify as?

The challenge is something called bias. Not just in the researcher’s intent, but their methods (including subject selection) and outcome measures. But it doesn’t stop there. There is also significant bias within journals, on which articles to publish. Ideally, we’d have scientists that were content with the truth, rather than what they hope to be true...and journals willing to publish good scientific studies.

I conduct research...so I understand that data can say what you want it to say. It takes integrity on the part of both the authors and journal to publish good science.

 

[boutrous]

Nearly three-quarters of Protestant Christian pastors in the U.S. view transgender identity as "immoral," according to a new poll. The survey data comes as several conservative states push forward anti-trans legislation and as the Senate takes up the Equality Act, which would ban discrimination against LGBTQ individuals.

The American Civil Liberties Union reported earlier this month that at least two dozen states have introduced bills that would block trans women and girls from taking part in sporting activities aligning with their gender identity. More than a dozen states have also introduced bills that would ban—and in some instances criminalize—gender-affirming medical care for trans minors.

Protestant Christian leaders appear to be largely on board with this effort. New polling by Lifeway Research, the Tennessee-based publishing and distribution division of the conservative Southern Baptist Convention, shows that 72 percent of Protestant pastors believe it is "morally wrong for an individual to identify with a gender different than the sex they were born." Furthermore, 77 percent believe gender-affirming (or sex-reassignment) surgery is "morally wrong.".............

72 Percent of Protestant Pastors View Trans Identity as 'Immoral': Poll (msn.com)

It's always interesting how religion is used to stir up hate and hate is used to pass unjust legislation. Morality does not define legality.

 

[Mr. Sparkle]

I need to go back an read the thread but my understanding is that people think that a man just says "I'm a women" and starts competing and dominating women's sports

I seem to remember hearing that hormone treatments, surgeries etc. that that isn't the case and someone who transitions to female is inline with the strengths, agilities and abilities of other female athletes in that sport

Is that right? And if so then I wouldn't see the problem in letting them compete

But it raises a question about the generational talent

Katie Ledecky. She is competing against world class swimmers. Literally the best in the world. And she is winning Olympic gold medals and she is so far ahead that there isn't another swimmer in the shot - and the shot isn't a close up

If Katie was born Kevin Ledecky and transitioned to Katie and was allowed to compete against female swimmers and performed the same way people would use that to say ,

"THAT, is EXACTLY why transgendered people shouldn't compete in sports"

It's a complicated issue and I'll admit I haven't been following it that closely and don't pretend to understand it the science, the pro's, the con's, the morals, the humanity and the fairness

But we know and understand much more than we did when 20 years ago and we'll know and understand more 10-20 years from now

What is "fair and right" today may change in the future

I think part of the problem is that even with hormone treatments, there are certain physical advantages in muscle/bone makeup that its hard to tell when you've actually reached a 'level' playing field, if ever.

BTW if Katie was born Kevin she would probably have even faster times. She holds the womens 1500m free record of 15:20:48. The men's record is 14:31:02. The top 30 men's finishers at the 2016 Olympics were all faster than her record time. So as fast as she is, she'd be the one that is several laps behind the field if she swam against men.

 

[JenningsTruckers]

Isn't it about time someone has the guts to speak up to say this action is setting back women's rights by 20-30 years?

Men and women are different physiologically. That's a simple, biological fact. Males have more muscle than women due to the hormone structure. To pretend that doesn't matter because of a psychological decision to identify as female is disrespectful to women. "Follow the science" as the saying gets tossed about so indiscriminately.
If a boy wants to identify as a girl, that's a choice that's made, but trampling over girls' rights to satisfy that person's every desire is unjust to women in every aspect.

Thank you , someone with some logical thinking . I spoke to a friend of mine that works for an ambulance company , he said they HAVE TO know if they're male or female ( No imagining ! ) ! Think about it , he's right !

 

[tenordas]

The American Civil Liberties Union reported earlier this month that at least two dozen states have introduced bills that would block trans women and girls from taking part in sporting activities aligning with their gender identity. More than a dozen states have also introduced bills that would ban—and in some instances criminalize—gender-affirming medical care for trans minors.

I consider this a good thing. There should be a law against minors doing such a thing. Think about it. Isn't it illegal for people under 21 to drink alcohol? Isn't selling cigarettes to minors illegal? Are minors allowed to vote? Are minors allowed to quit school? Is there not an age of consent? Is it legal to marry a minor? Isn't there an age at which one can be prosecuted for crime as "an adult"? Doesn't one have to be "adult age" to enter into a legally binding contract? I don't now about you, but I had a lot of stupid thoughts and opinions as a middle schooler. I shouldn't have been allowed to make certain decisions at that age because I wasn't mentally advanced enough to do so.

Since there are laws about all of those things, why would there not be a law against a minor making the life-altering choice of going through sex change therapy or sex change operation? There are many adults who went through those changing therapies/operations as minors who now say they made a grave mistake they cannot reverse.

I'm not saying no one should be able to go through therapy or a sex change operation, but I do believe a person should have a fully developed frontal lobe before making such a decision. Children, even teenagers, ARE NOT ADULTS. To treat them as adults is unfair to them, and borders on criminal negligence (in some instances I listed above, it actually is criminal activity) if not being that outright. Why do you think cereal companies have all those characters aimed at children? They know how easily influenced they are because their powers of reasoning are not yet fully developed.

A minor is too easily influenced by outside sources to reason out the long term effects of such an important decision. Wait. If the person still feels that way at the age of consent, then they should be free to pursue it.

 

[rajncajn]

It's always interesting how religion is used to stir up hate and hate is used to pass unjust legislation. Morality does not define legality.

Is it religion stirring up hate or the media going looking for someone religious to stir up opposition? I mean, why cite a poll of "Protestant Christian Pastors" on this subject to begin with? What results did they think they were going to get from a bunch of Southern Baptists anyway? Does that reflect all Christian/Religious views? You certainly seem to think so. And what does it matter if they think it is immoral or not? All sin is immoral and we are all sinners from a Christian perspective. If you polled the same pastors and asked them if grossly overeating is immoral then guess what...

 

[St. Widge]

Is it religion stirring up hate or the media going looking for someone religious to stir up opposition? I mean, why cite a poll of "Protestant Christian Pastors" on this subject to begin with? What results did they think they were going to get from a bunch of Southern Baptists anyway? Does that reflect all Christian/Religious views? You certainly seem to think so. And what does it matter if they think it is immoral or not? All sin is immoral and we are all sinners from a Christian perspective. If you polled the same pastors and asked them if grossly overeating is immoral then guess what...

Yeah, but I bet none of those pastors would support a law banning overeating, soft drinks (A.K.A. pop, coke, or soda) or all you can eat buffets for minors or adults.

 

[DaveXA]

Yeah, but I bet none of those pastors would support a law banning overeating, soft drinks (A.K.A. pop, coke, or soda) or all you can eat buffets for minors or adults.

Not the same thing.

That said, sex change and gender identity should be under the purview of the parents and their doctor. I'm not really a fan of legislation banning anything.