Trans athletes make great gains, yet resentment still flares (1 Viewer)

Mr. Sparkle

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Across the U.S. and in many places abroad, transgender athletes are breaking barriers in high school, college and pro sports and being embraced by teammates and fans. But resentments can still flare when transgender women start winning and dominating their sport.

Exhibit A is a recent public exchange involving tennis great Martina Navratilova, who came out as a lesbian in 1981 and is a longtime gay-rights activist. She now stands accused of being “transphobic” after asserting that many transgender women — even if they’ve undergone hormone treatment — have an unfair advantage over other female competitors.

“A man can decide to be female, take hormones if required by whatever sporting organization is concerned, win everything in sight and perhaps earn a small fortune, and then reverse his decision and go back to making babies if he so desires,” Navratilova wrote in a Feb. 17 op-ed for The Sunday Times of London. “It’s insane and it’s cheating.”


I find the headline and overall tone of the story to be a classic example of media bias but its an interesting phenomenon.

If my teenage daughter was competing against a teenage boy undergoing hormone therapy I'm not sure I'd consider that a fair competition. I consider that a good faith question that has to do with biology, not "transphobic resentment."

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DaveXA

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Interesting information. And it makes me think that maybe the answer to all of this are certain guidelines that define when a trans athlete can compete. I'm not sure it's huge issue for men's/boy's sports since there likely would not be a physical advantage (although there could be one in mental capacity since women are better at multi-tasking). But, for trans girls/women, maybe the answer is that we don't allow a trans woman to play a woman's sport until a certain number of years after they have transitioned and taken female hormones and that they have a testosterone level no higher than 1.79nmol/L. Could there still be some level of advantage? Possibly, but probably not more than another woman who just happened to be born with greater physical talent.

I mean, under normal circumstances we don't care if a girl born with lesser physical talents gets knocked off the team by another girl with greater physical talents, but for some reason we care if that "girl" was born as a boy. And, lets face it, there are many female athletes that could likely wipe the floor with pretty much so every dude on this board in their chosen sport. Women like Mia Ham, Alex Morgan, Abby Waumbaugh, Serena Williams, Venus Williams, etc.

But those comparing professional women with the men on this board is just silly. That's not an apt comparison. Compare those same women with professional male athletes and get back to me. Compare male to female trans with other athletes their own age and level of skill and see what kind of difference that makes. I'm seeing several people here making false equivalencies and comparisons that really don't make much sense to me.
 
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so you're saying there is not a woman on this planet who is not faster and/or stronger than you
you could beat any woman in tennis, basketball, soccer, skiing, track & field, etc?
That's not how it should be determined. It must be looked at incrementally, the best against the best on down. If you try to make proof by pitting the best woman against any schlub off the street then your reasoning is extremely flawed. If you took the top 100 athletes in any given physical sport at any given class, the vast majority of the outcomes would be in favor of biological males and that's probably being generous.
 

guidomerkinsrules

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But those comparing professional women with the men on this board is just silly. That's not an apt comparison. Compare those same women with professional male athletes and get back to me. Compare male to female trans with other athletes their own age and level of skill and see what kind of difference that makes. I'm seeing several people here making false equivalencies and comparisons that really don't make much sense to me.
his take/mini rant was predicated on men being physically superior to women
there was no caveat (bc the caveats would upend his argument)
 

guidomerkinsrules

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That's not how it should be determined. It must be looked at incrementally, the best against the best on down. If you try to make proof by pitting the best woman against any schlub off the street then your reasoning is extremely flawed. If you took the top 100 athletes in any given physical sport at any given class, the vast majority of the outcomes would be in favor of biological males and that's probably being generous.
i agree, i was just calling out his faulty logic
 
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Mr. Sparkle

Mr. Sparkle

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That's not how it should be determined. It must be looked at incrementally, the best against the best on down. If you try to make proof by pitting the best woman against any schlub off the street then your reasoning is extremely flawed. If you took the top 100 athletes in any given physical sport at any given class, the vast majority of the outcomes would be in favor of biological males and that's probably being generous.

I'm pretty sure you could take 20 random 10th grade boys and 20 girls from any high school and find the same. Some girls would excel over some boys in terms of athletic performance but the overall effect would be the same.

I mean, that's exactly why there's an issue here to begin with.
 

GeauxWhoDats

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so you're saying there is not a woman on this planet who is not faster and/or stronger than you
you could beat any woman in tennis, basketball, soccer, skiing, track & field, etc?

You are trying to bait to debate. Not every female athlete is the Billie Jean King story.
 

Optimus Prime

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I mean, under normal circumstances we don't care if a girl born with lesser physical talents gets knocked off the team by another girl with greater physical talents, but for some reason we care if that "girl" was born as a boy.

We also don't care if the reason one girl has greater talent is her well off parents hire the best trainers, sends her to camps etc. vs. the girl whose parents work two jobs and she's the oldest who takes care of her younger siblings so she barely has time to practice
 

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But those comparing professional women with the men on this board is just silly. That's not an apt comparison. Compare those same women with professional male athletes and get back to me. Compare male to female trans with other athletes their own age and level of skill and see what kind of difference that makes. I'm seeing several people here making false equivalencies and comparisons that really don't make much sense to me.

I don't see how it's false equivalence. The point is that it's not about your gender, it's about what physical advantages you were born with and how hard you work at your craft. At the upper levels of any sport there are people who just have greater physical talents and men will always have the advantage in any sport based on pure physical force. But, in the middle and lower levels, there likely isn't much difference in physical talent between men and women besides men just having a brute force advantage.

I mean, I recall watching a 12 year-old girl throw a softball 70 MPH. Imagine had she been allowed and trained to throw a baseball instead? I would bet she would have been just as good as any other 12 year-old boy pitching baseball.

On the other hand, my daughter who did not have those physical talents or drive to be great, had to try to hit that 70 MPH pitch and she had no chance at it. What's the difference if that 70 MPH pitch comes from a girl or a girl that was born a boy? I mean, maybe there is a difference, but I'm struggling to see it.
 
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We also don't care if the reason one girl has greater talent is her well off parents hire the best trainers, sends her to camps etc. vs. the girl whose parents work two jobs and she's the oldest who takes care of her younger siblings so she barely has time to practice
So, why should we care if one girl was born a boy? And I don't mean that in the literal sense. I mean if we don't make exceptions for others who can't compete for reasons that are out of their control, then why should we make exceptions for trans athletes?
 

Infoman

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so you're saying there is not a woman on this planet who is not faster and/or stronger than you
you could beat any woman in tennis, basketball, soccer, skiing, track & field, etc?

No, and stop putting words in my mouth I didn't say, or extrapolating (inferring) what you want to from my posts... That's why you have been put on ignore for a while now.

I am saying what I said... In nearly all cases, a biological male that went through puberty as a male, will have developed differently from a biological female... Not in all cases, but nearly all cases... The biological male that developed with the advantage of much higher testosterone levels will have a major physical advantage over a biological female... especially in a sport that is very physical in nature.

This is precisely why HGH and testosterone boosters (steroids) are not allowed in competitive sports no matter the gender... It creates an unfair advantage...

There are obviously going to be some exceptions... and in less physical / contact sports like golf, tennis, track, etc. the difference is less of an issue... but still not non-existent....

Muddying the waters doesn't make the notion any less silly of a discussion... you understood my point... and the scientific providence behind it... There is an unfair physical advantage in nearly all cases (not every case) when it comes to a biological males that have developed through puberty with very high levels of testosterone - as opposed to biological females that did not... any argument to the contrary is ignoring scientific fact.
 

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But those comparing professional women with the men on this board is just silly. That's not an apt comparison. Compare those same women with professional male athletes and get back to me. Compare male to female trans with other athletes their own age and level of skill and see what kind of difference that makes. I'm seeing several people here making false equivalencies and comparisons that really don't make much sense to me.

The point is that not everyone has equal physical talents and that is regardless of gender. I don't have the same physical talents as say Zion Williamson and he would crush me in basketball. But, we don't think that is unfair. So, I guess the question is what makes it unfair if a trans woman plays against other women while she has physical advantages, but not unfair when Zion Williamson dunks on a short, slow guy like me?

But, beyond all that, the article that Optimus posted points out that at some point you can get a trans woman's testosterone levels low enough that she will no longer have the physical advantages that testosterone gives me. At that point, I don't see any justification for not letting them compete in women's sports since they would not longer have an unfair physical advantage. At least, no more of an advantage than any other woman who was born with certain physical advantages.

I mean, if you are arguing that actual men should not be allowed to compete with women in certain sports because it is unfair, sure. But that's not really the issue with trans women because they are becoming in some sense biologically female. Sure, you can't totally change the sex organs, but you can change the hormone and testosterone levels that given men the physical advantage. In fact, for some sports, having a larger male frame without the testosterone necessary to build the muscle to carry that frame, might even be a physical disadvantage.
 

DaveXA

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I don't see how it's false equivalence. The point is that it's not about your gender, it's about what physical advantages you were born with and how hard you work at your craft. At the upper levels of any sport there are people who just have greater physical talents and men will always have the advantage in any sport based on pure physical force. But, in the middle and lower levels, there likely isn't much difference in physical talent between men and women besides men just having a brute force advantage.

I mean, I recall watching a 12 year-old girl throw a softball 70 MPH. Imagine had she been allowed and trained to throw a baseball instead? I would bet she would have been just as good as any other 12 year-old boy pitching baseball.

On the other hand, my daughter who did not have those physical talents or drive to be great, had to try to hit that 70 MPH pitch and she had no chance at it. What's the difference if that 70 MPH pitch comes from a girl or a girl that was born a boy? I mean, maybe there is a difference, but I'm struggling to see it.

I would argue that the difference would be significant enough at the mid and lower levels. Maybe not as apparent because I suspect people pay less attention to those levels. But it's there. And for someone who is already skilled making the transition will have the added advantage of being that much stronger physically than her peers, at least initially. I don't know if it should be 12 months or 24 months after, but even after all of the treatments there still is a small advantage, and maybe arguably skill can overcome that.

And this is coming from someone who is sympathetic to trans being able to fit in. I think it can work, but it's going to be a lot of trial and error before we settle on something that works for most everyone involved.

I do think expanding rosters could be a starting point. But every team is going to have to play by the same rules and agree on what's fair to everyone involved.
 
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I don't see how it's false equivalence. The point is that it's not about your gender, it's about what physical advantages you were born with and how hard you work at your craft. At the upper levels of any sport there are people who just have greater physical talents and men will always have the advantage in any sport based on pure physical force. But, in the middle and lower levels, there likely isn't much difference in physical talent between men and women besides men just having a brute force advantage.

I mean, I recall watching a 12 year-old girl throw a softball 70 MPH. Imagine had she been allowed and trained to throw a baseball instead? I would bet she would have been just as good as any other 12 year-old boy pitching baseball.

On the other hand, my daughter who did not have those physical talents or drive to be great, had to try to hit that 70 MPH pitch and she had no chance at it. What's the difference if that 70 MPH pitch comes from a girl or a girl that was born a boy? I mean, maybe there is a difference, but I'm struggling to see it.
Flip that scenario and let all the boys try out for girls softball. What do you think the ratio would be of boys to girls on the softball team?
 

saintmdterps

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In high school we had a girl try out for and make the men's soccer team, as there was no girl's soccer team. So my buddy and I used that same reasoning to try out for the women's volleyball team. We got a resounding "No!" from administration. When we pressed for a reason we were told it was widely believed we wanted to try out only to ogle the women in short shorts, which was true.

"But you let Melinda play on the men's team. What if she just wants to ogle the men"

"Melinda is gay..."

:hihi:
 

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