Trans athletes make great gains, yet resentment still flares (1 Viewer)

Mr. Sparkle

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Across the U.S. and in many places abroad, transgender athletes are breaking barriers in high school, college and pro sports and being embraced by teammates and fans. But resentments can still flare when transgender women start winning and dominating their sport.

Exhibit A is a recent public exchange involving tennis great Martina Navratilova, who came out as a lesbian in 1981 and is a longtime gay-rights activist. She now stands accused of being “transphobic” after asserting that many transgender women — even if they’ve undergone hormone treatment — have an unfair advantage over other female competitors.

“A man can decide to be female, take hormones if required by whatever sporting organization is concerned, win everything in sight and perhaps earn a small fortune, and then reverse his decision and go back to making babies if he so desires,” Navratilova wrote in a Feb. 17 op-ed for The Sunday Times of London. “It’s insane and it’s cheating.”


I find the headline and overall tone of the story to be a classic example of media bias but its an interesting phenomenon.

If my teenage daughter was competing against a teenage boy undergoing hormone therapy I'm not sure I'd consider that a fair competition. I consider that a good faith question that has to do with biology, not "transphobic resentment."

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GeauxWhoDats

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there was no 'to beat Silver & Gold'
chasing faster people makes you faster
it's a science fact

So yet Bronze remains Bronze but the day before she was a Silver or a Gold? It wasn't a new girl that moved to town, it was a 5th Place from the Boys Track team that changed Tracks. Does that sound like competition?
 

DaveXA

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i was a very good athlete before HS - my best friend was just a physical freak
i was never going to beat him, but i certainly got better bc i competed against him ALL of the time

And to be clear, I'm talking about formal sanctioned competitions. The sanctioning bodies for the various sports are going to have to deal with this and I don't envy the position they'll be in regarding coming up with rules for trans athletes.

I'm really curious to see how the NCAA handles this because let's say a men's all star trans to female and wants to join the women's team. Will the NCAA allow that?
 

Saint_Ward

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Just for fun, State of Michigan Record Books for Discus for boys and girls. Also, the boys discus is 1.6kg and the girls is 1kg and smaller too.

boys.
1616518713056.png

girls. I also added in the high jump, because wow.. what a difference. But, only three girl record holders threw what the shortest records were for the boys, and with a discus almost half the size/weight.

1616518760359.png
 

St. Widge

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I would argue that the difference would be significant enough at the mid and lower levels. Maybe not as apparent because I suspect people pay less attention to those levels. But it's there. And for someone who is already skilled making the transition will have the added advantage of being that much stronger physically than her peers, at least initially. I don't know if it should be 12 months or 24 months after, but even after all of the treatments there still is a small advantage, and maybe arguably skill can overcome that.

And this is coming from someone who is sympathetic to trans being able to fit in. I think it can work, but it's going to be a lot of trial and error before we settle on something that works for most everyone involved.

I do think expanding rosters could be a starting point. But every team is going to have to play by the same rules and agree on what's fair to everyone involved.

I agree. I think that there does need to be a waiting period and testing for some level of hormones/testosterone in an effort to make it fair. But, I have to say that I don't think it's really going to be a major issue long term. I mean, there aren't really that many trans people and the number of them that want to play sports at a competitive level is even smaller than that. And, the number that will be children that are at the point of transitioning and that want to play sports will be even smaller. And frankly, I'm much more worried about the kids at the youth level all getting a chance to play, even the less developed physically, than I am at the upper levels.
 

St. Widge

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Flip that scenario and let all the boys try out for girls softball. What do you think the ratio would be of boys to girls on the softball team?

Higher than you think at least with pitchers. You ever try to throw a softball underhanded with speed and accuracy? It's very much so a skill that most boys will not have. I coached girls softball with a guy who pitched for an SEC baseball team. He tried to throw a softball underhanded with speed and accuracy and he couldn't do it as well as the girls on the team.
 

guidomerkinsrules

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So yet Bronze remains Bronze but the day before she was a Silver or a Gold? It wasn't a new girl that moved to town, it was a 5th Place from the Boys Track team that changed Tracks. Does that sound like competition?
doesn't your own premise kind of indicate that it is
it could have been 2 faster girls who just moved to town

and, i was not saying that my 'USWNT trains against men' was not a solution
just an additional piece of information, especially in light of the fact that most of the board - and especially those who seem to want to restrict trans inclusion - view 'competition' solely in terms of Ws
which is odd since the majority of competitions ends in most people losing
 

guidomerkinsrules

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Just for fun, State of Michigan Record Books for Discus for boys and girls. Also, the boys discus is 1.6kg and the girls is 1kg and smaller too.

boys.
View attachment 155931

girls. I also added in the high jump, because wow.. what a difference. But, only three girl record holders threw what the shortest records were for the boys, and with a discus almost half the size/weight.

View attachment 155932
we did a bit of comparison at the beginning of the thread
World Class female athletes today are about where the men were in the 50s
- unsurprisingly, 'both sides' seemed to think that supported their positions
 
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Higher than you think at least with pitchers. You ever try to throw a softball underhanded with speed and accuracy? It's very much so a skill that most boys will not have. I coached girls softball with a guy who pitched for an SEC baseball team. He tried to throw a softball underhanded with speed and accuracy and he couldn't do it as well as the girls on the team.
That's not really an indicator of ability. If the boys were trained to throw that way from the start just like the girls were then it's likely there would be way more boy pitchers than girls. Take your best girl softball hitters and put them at the plate at a boys 5A baseball game and see if they fare anywhere near as well as they would in a softball game. Better yet, put your best softball pitcher at the plate and have her sling balls at high school varsity boys and see how many strike outs she can throw. Overhand or underhanded, softball or baseball, take your pick.
 
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we did a bit of comparison at the beginning of the thread
World Class female athletes today are about where the men were in the 50s
- unsurprisingly, 'both sides' seemed to think that supported their positions
So, what you're saying is ,as long as they're not put on a level playing field, they're virtually equal
 
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Just for fun...for the following sports, if you eliminated gender related sports and allowed all genders to compete for one competitive league, what percentage of those with an XX chromosome of inheritance would make up the following sports:

- Professional football
- Professional basketball
- Professional baseball
- Professional tennis
- Professional golf
- Professional hock
- Professional volleyball
- Professional swimming
- Professional gymnastics
- Professional boxing
- Professional MMA

I'll let someone else list their predictions before I post my own.
 

St. Widge

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That's not really an indicator of ability. If the boys were trained to throw that way from the start just like the girls were then it's likely there would be way more boy pitchers than girls. Take your best girl softball hitters and put them at the plate at a boys 5A baseball game and see of they fare anywhere near as well as they would in a softball game. Better yet, put your 70mph softball pitcher at the plate and have her sling softballs at high school varsity boys and see how many strike outs she can throw. Overhand or uunderhanded, softball or baseball, take your pick.

I think you missed my point or I didn't make it well enough. My point was that why is it that we are okay with that girl being that good and we don't think of that as unfair, but we would think of it as unfair if that girl happened to have been born a boy. I also think you overestimate the physical differences between boys and girls at ages 10 - 12. By high school sure, there are huge differences but not so much when they are younger. And, I think there are some positions and sports where men's brute force and size advantages don't mean as much and can be made up for by women's greater ability to multitask and withstand pain.

Regardless, I think the main point being missed here is that with trans girls, we aren't just talking about letting a boy play against girls. We are talking about people who are in transition and both limiting the amount of testosterone they produce and taking female hormones. At a certain point, discussed in the articles posted by Optimus Prime, that gets rid of the advantage that testosterone gives men. And, in the long run might leave a trans girl with a larger frame and heavier bones, but without the testosterone necessary to put enough muscle on that frame to be competitive without actually working harder than the women who were born women. So, it's unclear that in reality there is any competitive advantage for trans women if we make sure it is actually a trans woman competing and not someone who has much higher testosterone levels.

And, again, it's not like there is some huge number of trans women wanting to play womens' sports. It's a small number and it's not the straw man argument of a bunch of dudes just deciding to call themselves women and play womens' sports. And, even if that did happen, it would be pretty easy to weed them out the same way that we do drug testing for performance enhancing substances.

And, by the way, the idea that boys can be trained to throw underhand softball but aren't kind of brings of the question of how much of the current physical differences between men and women is based on the lack of training women receive in sports and the type of training they are given as opposed to men. Also, I suspect that some of it has to do with natural selection in that the strongest, biggest, and best female athletes weren't always the most likely to pass on their genes until more recent times.
 
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- Professional football - 0% (and yes, that includes kickers)
- Professional basketball - 0.5%
- Professional baseball - 0.5%, but mostly because there's such a huge pool of competition
- Professional tennis - 30%
- Professional golf - 10%
- Professional hock - 5%
- Professional volleyball - 30%
- Professional swimming - 10%
- Professional gymnastics - 40% Tough one because I think women are better at some events
- Professional boxing - 0%, Jesus
- Professional MMA - 1%, some women are great grapplers
 

St. Widge

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I think gymnastics would depend on what events are included. Which also brings up the question of what percentage of the advantage that men have over women in sports is due to the fact that men create the sports and those sports naturally take advantage of the physical characteristics and superiority that men have?
 

kizzy821

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Some certainly are, and one flaw in rules requiring competition by birth gender is that it potentially forces them to compete with girls while transitioning. One example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mack_Beggs
It would make sense if the testosterone administered while transitioning to male, and waiting for the testosterone levels to drop when transitioning to female would be the primary focus when determining eligibility.

But seeing as how it could take years in some cases, it will shorten or eliminate the time they have to participate in college or HS.

Whose identity rights should be prioritized.

The conversation so far seems to focus on which gender the trans students identify as. But do biological women identify with trans women.

I'm also having a hard time coming up with a comparable analogy so that I can look at it through the POV of a trans person.

This is the premise of my yet-to-be-discovered analogy:

"I've changed some of my physical attributes to mimic yours. Now let me do what you do."

Kinda like an overweight person having surgery to become slim, then asking to be part of a panel that focuses on losing weight through diet and exercise. Flimsy, I know.

---
Rachel Dolezal just popped into my head as a better example. But it doesn't help expand my POV. It just reinforces the one I already have.
 
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