Trans athletes make great gains, yet resentment still flares (1 Viewer)

Mr. Sparkle

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Across the U.S. and in many places abroad, transgender athletes are breaking barriers in high school, college and pro sports and being embraced by teammates and fans. But resentments can still flare when transgender women start winning and dominating their sport.

Exhibit A is a recent public exchange involving tennis great Martina Navratilova, who came out as a lesbian in 1981 and is a longtime gay-rights activist. She now stands accused of being “transphobic” after asserting that many transgender women — even if they’ve undergone hormone treatment — have an unfair advantage over other female competitors.

“A man can decide to be female, take hormones if required by whatever sporting organization is concerned, win everything in sight and perhaps earn a small fortune, and then reverse his decision and go back to making babies if he so desires,” Navratilova wrote in a Feb. 17 op-ed for The Sunday Times of London. “It’s insane and it’s cheating.”


I find the headline and overall tone of the story to be a classic example of media bias but its an interesting phenomenon.

If my teenage daughter was competing against a teenage boy undergoing hormone therapy I'm not sure I'd consider that a fair competition. I consider that a good faith question that has to do with biology, not "transphobic resentment."

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kizzy821

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Florida House advances a bill that requires high school athletes to participate according to their biological gender and would give high school athletics administrators a right of genital inspection of individual athletes.


Sounds like it's saying the student's private doctor must conduct the exam (if there's a dispute). It can be avoided altogether with admitting the truth up front. Or they could opt for a genetic test or testing of testosterone levels.

"Under the measure, students’ schools would have to resolve disputes “by requesting that the student provide a health examination and consent form or other statement signed by the student's personal health care provider which must verify the student's biological sex.""
 

Super44

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I find the headline and overall tone of the story to be a classic example of media bias but its an interesting phenomenon.

If my teenage daughter was competing against a teenage boy undergoing hormone therapy I'm not sure I'd consider that a fair competition. I consider that a good faith question that has to do with biology, not "transphobic resentment."

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Nothing wrong with a transgender Olympic category. They are not woman, nor man. They are something in between. Having a man to female trans compete against a born female, is unfair, in most cases. Let them have a transgender golf tour as an example. Why not?
 

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A nascent effort by Republican state lawmakers across the country to pass bills restricting youth transgender rights and LGBTQ education has increasingly run into resistance … from Republican governors.

In recent weeks, the tension between GOP lawmakers and the governors faced with implementing the laws they pass has become unusually acute in several red states, some of them deeply red.

There are 27 Republican governors. Four of them have issued vetoes of bills restricting the medical care and/or sports participation of transgender youth, or attempting to constrain education on sexual orientation and gender identity. And a fifth, Alabama Gov. Kay Ivey, has yet to say whether she will sign a bill similar to the other proposals on transgender youth.

In each case, the bills had the overwhelming and even unanimous support of GOP state lawmakers before the governor intervened. Oftentimes, the governor has labeled the bill as overly broad, with the lawmakers declining to back down and moving to thwart the veto.

The first big inflection point came in South Dakota, where Gov. Kristi L. Noem (R) last month issued a partial veto of a bill restricting the participation of transgender students in the sports of their gender identities. Despite initially indicating she would sign the bill, Noem reversed course and nixed key portions while arguing that it opened her state up to unwinnable and costly lawsuits. Particularly notably: She did so despite a rising profile in the GOP which has put her in line for a potential 2024 presidential campaign — ambitions that could be harmed by her decision................

 

Optimus Prime

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The women timed their announcement carefully, holding it the day before National Girls and Women in Sports Day, created three decades ago to promote female athletes.


Among them were trailblazers: Donna de Varona, the Olympic swimmer who lobbied for Title IX’s passage in 1972; Donna Lopiano, the former chief executive of the Women’s Sports Foundation; and Nancy Hogshead-Makar, Olympic swimmer and law professor who wrote a book on Title IX.


Before that day in early February, they were universally respected as pioneers in the long fight for women’s equality in sports. Then they unveiled their project: changing the way transgender girls and women participate in women’s sports.

Almost immediately, their proposal drew bitter criticism in the fraught debate over transgender rights.


For starters, they said, they planned to lobby for federal legislation requiring transgender girls and women, in high school sports and above, to suppress testosterone for at least one year before competing against other girls and women, making universal a policy already in place in some states and some higher levels of sports.

For transgender girls in high school who do not suppress testosterone, they suggested “accommodations,” such as separate races, podiums or teams.
They called themselves the Women’s Sports Policy Working Group........

 
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The women timed their announcement carefully, holding it the day before National Girls and Women in Sports Day, created three decades ago to promote female athletes.


Among them were trailblazers: Donna de Varona, the Olympic swimmer who lobbied for Title IX’s passage in 1972; Donna Lopiano, the former chief executive of the Women’s Sports Foundation; and Nancy Hogshead-Makar, Olympic swimmer and law professor who wrote a book on Title IX.


Before that day in early February, they were universally respected as pioneers in the long fight for women’s equality in sports. Then they unveiled their project: changing the way transgender girls and women participate in women’s sports.

Almost immediately, their proposal drew bitter criticism in the fraught debate over transgender rights.


For starters, they said, they planned to lobby for federal legislation requiring transgender girls and women, in high school sports and above, to suppress testosterone for at least one year before competing against other girls and women, making universal a policy already in place in some states and some higher levels of sports.

For transgender girls in high school who do not suppress testosterone, they suggested “accommodations,” such as separate races, podiums or teams.
They called themselves the Women’s Sports Policy Working Group........


Yeah...that's unhealthy and unethical as crap. There's lots of people who think that transgender individuals shouldn't play competitive athletics against individuals with different chromosomal and therefore physiologic differences...but to go to those lengths? That's crazy
 

WhoDatPhan78

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The fact that you don't have any trans men dominating men's sports, proves the anti-trans people's point on this.

I am as woke as they come, and support trans rights all the way, but there isn't a good way to incorporate this situation into competitive sports.

The trans movement is going to lose momentum if they don't back off this sports issue.
 

Arathrael

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The fact that you don't have any trans men dominating men's sports, proves the anti-trans people's point on this.

I am as woke as they come, and support trans rights all the way, but there isn't a good way to incorporate this situation into competitive sports.

The trans movement is going to lose momentum if they don't back off this sports issue.
I'm sorry, but that's just a bad take. For starters, the notion that allowing trans women to compete would result in domination simply isn't borne out by reality. Women's sports aren't dominated by trans women either. As in, the number of trans women Olympic athletes to date is zero, for example. Which you'd expect; when you're selecting from a small group (trans people) for another small group (top athletes), you don't end up with a large selection of people.

But that's not to say both trans men and trans women can't be competitive. They can, and there's examples of both, including trans men, for example, Chris Mosier
(https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/52318558).

That's not to say there's nothing to account for in terms of competition; there is, but it clearly is something that already is, and continues to be, taken into account by the various sporting authorities, who are, to their credit, trying to account for the core values of both competition and inclusion.
 

guidomerkinsrules

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The fact that you don't have any trans men dominating men's sports, proves the anti-trans people's point on this.

I am as woke as they come, and support trans rights all the way, but there isn't a good way to incorporate this situation into competitive sports.

The trans movement is going to lose momentum if they don't back off this sports issue.
there is ALWAYS the 'they're pushing too hard' - the old 'they're ramming gay marriage down our throats' complaint
it's well meaning, but often overstated and defensive where the best policy is to push offensive tactics
 

WhoDatPhan78

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there is ALWAYS the 'they're pushing too hard' - the old 'they're ramming gay marriage down our throats' complaint
it's well meaning, but often overstated and defensive where the best policy is to push offensive tactics

I'm not sure that is what this is though. it is undeniable that someone who transitions to female in their late teens or later is going to have a significant biological advantage in sports where strength is a significant factor. it is not anti-trans to acknowledge it.

Honestly, I think our society places too much importance on competitive sports, so I really don't care either way, but the sports issue is going to give many fence-sitters pause, and those fence sitters are going to be who determines how much progress is made. We need them on the right side.
 

WhoDatPhan78

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I'm sorry, but that's just a bad take. For starters, the notion that allowing trans women to compete would result in domination simply isn't borne out by reality. Women's sports aren't dominated by trans women either. As in, the number of trans women Olympic athletes to date is zero, for example. Which you'd expect; when you're selecting from a small group (trans people) for another small group (top athletes), you don't end up with a large selection of people.

But that's not to say both trans men and trans women can't be competitive. They can, and there's examples of both, including trans men, for example, Chris Mosier
(https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/52318558).

That's not to say there's nothing to account for in terms of competition; there is, but it clearly is something that already is, and continues to be, taken into account by the various sporting authorities, who are, to their credit, trying to account for the core values of both competition and inclusion.

I don't agree. You can't use any data we currently have to say that trans women won't dominate in athletic competition. To this date the number of trans women competing in athletics is not statically relevant. That will change though as children are more comfortable being open about their gender identity.

I'm sorry, but a person who goes through puberty with male hormones and transitions later is going to have a significant advantage over people who went through puberty with female hormones in any sport where physical strength gives an advantage. I am not saying that all trans females will dominate all cis females in every athletic competition, but all other things being equal, someone who goes through puberty with male hormones has a physical advantage over other women in most athletic sports. Sure, any woman in the WNBA would destroy a regular guy in a game of one on one, but if we were only comparing elite athletes to other elite athletes, it would be a different story.

How many gold metals would Kaitlin Jenner have won in the 1976 Olympics competing as a female?

There isn't enough data for there to be a data driven discussion on this issue, so trying to use examples just isn't relevant. In 15 years we can talk about what the data says.

But as someone who supports trans rights, i think the sports issue is bad for the overall cause.
 

Arathrael

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I don't agree. You can't use any data we currently have to say that trans women won't dominate in athletic competition. To this date the number of trans women competing in athletics is not statically relevant. That will change though as children are more comfortable being open about their gender identity.
That's an argument for approaching things with the information we have now, and adapting it as and when it actually shifts, if it does. Which is what's already being done.

It's not an argument for excluding an already marginalised group of people from competitive sport - and you've already made the point that competitive sport is something our society places importance on - now, on the grounds of individual speculation unsupported by data about what might happen in the future, which is what you seem to be advocating for here.

I'm sorry, but a person who goes through puberty with male hormones and transitions later is going to have a significant advantage over people who went through puberty with female hormones in any sport where physical strength gives an advantage. I am not saying that all trans females will dominate all cis females in every athletic competition, but all other things being equal, someone who goes through puberty with male hormones has a physical advantage over other women in most athletic sports. Sure, any woman in the WNBA would destroy a regular guy in a game of one on one, but if we were only comparing elite athletes to other elite athletes, it would be a different story.
Even in that brief paragraph, you've raised far more complexity than you perhaps realise; putting a distinction on 'going through puberty with male hormones', for example, suggests that a trans woman who was able to take puberty blockers should be treated differently to one who wasn't.

But, again, the thing there is, there is plenty of actual scientific research that has been done, and is being done on that. Guidelines and rules are drawn up by sporting authorities based on that science.

Which is how it should be done.

If you really disagree with that, I genuinely don't know what to tell you, as I don't know what to tell anyone who doesn't agree with that. It should be clear that excluding an group of people en masse from competitive sport should be a last resort, only where it is undeniably the case that not having done so is detrimental to all. It should also be inherently clear that we should be setting rules and guidelines primarily based on what has actually happened and is happening, not on what people, often irrationally, think might happen, and it should be obvious that we do so with an approach rooted in objective science, not subjective prejudice. Do you really not agree with that?
 

WhoDatPhan78

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That's an argument for approaching things with the information we have now, and adapting it as and when it actually shifts, if it does. Which is what's already being done.

It's not an argument for excluding an already marginalised group of people from competitive sport - and you've already made the point that competitive sport is something our society places importance on - now, on the grounds of individual speculation unsupported by data about what might happen in the future, which is what you seem to be advocating for here.


Even in that brief paragraph, you've raised far more complexity than you perhaps realise; putting a distinction on 'going through puberty with male hormones', for example, suggests that a trans woman who was able to take puberty blockers should be treated differently to one who wasn't.

But, again, the thing there is, there is plenty of actual scientific research that has been done, and is being done on that. Guidelines and rules are drawn up by sporting authorities based on that science.

Which is how it should be done.

If you really disagree with that, I genuinely don't know what to tell you, as I don't know what to tell anyone who doesn't agree with that. It should be clear that excluding an group of people en masse from competitive sport should be a last resort, only where it is undeniably the case that not having done so is detrimental to all. It should also be inherently clear that we should be setting rules and guidelines primarily based on what has actually happened and is happening, not on what people, often irrationally, think might happen, and it should be obvious that we do so with an approach rooted in objective science, not subjective prejudice. Do you really not agree with that?

clearly I draw a distinction between those who transition before puberty and those who do not.

whether you deny trans people access to sports or allow them full access, you are making a decision without data. There isnt enough data to support either position.
 

guidomerkinsrules

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clearly I draw a distinction between those who transition before puberty and those who do not.

whether you deny trans people access to sports or allow them full access, you are making a decision without data. There isnt enough data to support either position.
What problem is being fixed?
What is the size of that problem?
What is gained if trans athletes are banned?
What is lost?
 

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