Trans athletes make great gains, yet resentment still flares (19 Viewers)

[kizzy821]

Which is e a what I said - that some of y’all are arguing that some are trying to use this as a loophole to gain competitive advantage

It’s structurally not much different than the argument that some would use this as a loophole to spy on, et al, little girls in the bathrooms

Another random sexual analogy. Ok.

Anyway. No one is accusing men of doing it expressly to gain a competitive advantage, but the question is begging to be asked: Why is it mainly men?!

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

Another random sexual analogy. Ok.

Anyway. No one is accusing men of doing it expressly to gain a competitive advantage, but the question is begging to be asked: Why is it mainly men?!

Very specific analogy used against the same class of people for almost exactly the same political reason

And it’s ‘mainly men’ (trans women) for many, many reasons, not least of which is bc ‘protecting women’ is as close to a win win as politics can get these days

The side championing inclusion realizes that it’s backing only about .05% of the population and that the argument is way too nuanced/philosophical to turn into any sort of rallying cry

But I’m also fairly confident that in 10 years time (or so) the position will be more ch more obvious and supported (medically and ethically)

 

[kizzy821]

Very specific analogy used against the same class of people for almost exactly the same political reason

And it’s ‘mainly men’ (trans women) for many, many reasons, not least of which is bc ‘protecting women’ is as close to a win win as politics can get these days

The side championing inclusion realizes that it’s backing only about .05% of the population and that the argument is way too nuanced/philosophical to turn into any sort of rallying cry

But I’m also fairly confident that in 10 years time (or so) the position will be more ch more obvious and supported (medically and ethically)

What does that even mean?

 

[CapitalCitySaint]

You're reaching. She made an observation. An accurate observation. That this fight is mainly about men trying to bully their way into spaces created for women and not the other way around. Okay... So those are my words...

But why is that? It's a glaring distinction.

As a biological woman, I'm sick of men here telling us how we should feel about the situation.

I have a handful of trans friends. 2 who are M==>F (one who is on hormones & one who actually had the full transition). I love them and support them and believe in their rights to have equal opportunities for jobs, marriage, healthcare and so many other things. But what I won't do is sit here and pretend that they are physically the same as a biological woman.

 

[DaveXA]

Very specific analogy used against the same class of people for almost exactly the same political reason

And it’s ‘mainly men’ (trans women) for many, many reasons, not least of which is bc ‘protecting women’ is as close to a win win as politics can get these days

The side championing inclusion realizes that it’s backing only about .05% of the population and that the argument is way too nuanced/philosophical to turn into any sort of rallying cry

But I’m also fairly confident that in 10 years time (or so) the position will be more ch more obvious and supported (medically and ethically)

It's odd that you think people are arguing to "protect women" solely for the purpose of scoring political points when the arguments they're making don't really support that conclusion. I think what you're getting from the conversation is much different than what I'm seeing. I just think you're trying to extrapolate motives from comments that don't really reflect how they actually feel about transgendered individuals.

 

[SaintInBucLand]

I really don't understand how people cannot see that allowing transgender females to compete with natural born females simply destroys all the hard work and gains made by genetic females in sport.

As a biological woman, I'm sick of men here telling us how we should feel about the situation.

I have a handful of trans friends. 2 who are M==>F (one who is on hormones & one who actually had the full transition). I love them and support them and believe in their rights to have equal opportunities for jobs, marriage, healthcare and so many other things. But what I won't do is sit here and pretend that they are physically the same as a biological woman.

Also I was hoping to see this response from a female on the forums. This needs to be heard/seen.

 

[Mr. Sparkle]

As a biological woman, I'm sick of men here telling us how we should feel about the situation.

I have a handful of trans friends. 2 who are M==>F (one who is on hormones & one who actually had the full transition). I love them and support them and believe in their rights to have equal opportunities for jobs, marriage, healthcare and so many other things. But what I won't do is sit here and pretend that they are physically the same as a biological woman.

That's pretty much the entire issue right there. The first time I really clued into these issues was JK Rowling getting blowtorched online for saying exactly this. And its only gotten worse from there.....

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

It's odd that you think people are arguing to "protect women" solely for the purpose of scoring political points when the arguments they're making don't really support that conclusion. I think what you're getting from the conversation is much different than what I'm seeing. I just think you're trying to extrapolate motives from comments that don't really reflect how they actually feel about transgendered individuals.

Wait come on..”many, many reasons not least of which”
How in the world to you derive ‘solely’ from that?

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

As a biological woman, I'm sick of men here telling us how we should feel about the situation.
.

Is anyone doing that?
Isn’t it more ‘your feelings might not be the only measuring stick to use’?

 

[DaveXA]

Wait come on..”many, many reasons not least of which”
How in the world to you derive ‘solely’ from that?

Actually I misread that. Disregard the solely part. But unless I'm misunderstanding the intent of your posts, I think the rest of my point stands.

 

[kizzy821]

As a biological woman, I'm sick of men here telling us how we should feel about the situation.

I have a handful of trans friends. 2 who are M==>F (one who is on hormones & one who actually had the full transition). I love them and support them and believe in their rights to have equal opportunities for jobs, marriage, healthcare and so many other things. But what I won't do is sit here and pretend that they are physically the same as a biological woman.

I'm right there with you.

I don't know any transgender individuals, personally. But I would literally lay down my life (not saying much coming from me) for a person's right to love who they wanna love. To be who they want to be.

But when it comes to physical capabilities and competitions, my mind does not allow me to block out the differences.

I know that we're not the same... Everyone knows we're not the same.

 

[kizzy821]

Wait come on..”many, many reasons not least of which”
How in the world to you derive ‘solely’ from that?

But what are some of those many, many reasons? Dave inadvertently made me realize what you meant about the political win/win.

But surely you don't believe someone as atypical as moi is arguing against this for political reasons.

 

[Infoman]

No one's feelings should be the measuring stick... Transgenders' included... The measuring stick should be... Do you have an God Given/Natural/Biological/evolutionary/hormonal/developmental/Chemical/etc. advantage over the people you compete against...? If you do... It's not a fair competition... and hence shouldn't be allowed. Feelings and Identity are of no consequence in the realm of competitive fairness and general sportsmanship.

 

[DaveXA]

Is anyone doing that?
Isn’t it more ‘your feelings might not be the only measuring stick to use’?

I think it's the verbiage, "the side that...", "dog whstle", "political points" et al that needlessly makes people defensive. Those type of comments are not the hallmarks of good faith discussions. I would grant people the benefit of the doubt in this discussion and let's hash it out rather than making assumptions and accusations that may or may not be true.

And certainly, our feelings aren't or shouldn't be the only factor, but it's relevant imo.

 

[SaintInBucLand]

I think it's the verbiage, "the side that...", "dog whstle", "political points" et al that needlessly makes people defensive. Those type of comments are not the hallmarks of good faith discussions. I would grant people the benefit of the doubt in this discussion and let's hash it out rather than making assumptions and accusations that may or may not be true.

And certainly, our feelings aren't or shouldn't be the only factor, but it's relevant imo.

I have an opinion on this because my 16 year old daughter is in track and this year there was a dust up at the school over 2 trans girls who joined the team and quickly smoked all the other girls they were competing against during intra school practice. This made my daughter extremely upset and wanted to quit the team. I was able to convince her not to worry about them, and just focus on her personal times.