Trans athletes make great gains, yet resentment still flares (1 Viewer)

[Brandon13]

It's kind of weird b/c I don't think Lia Thomas should compete in women's college swimming. Once they become adults the focus is clearly on winning, which makes a difference in my mind.

With kids the focus should be on other things.

It also doesn't help that at the same time these legislatures are passing these rules to stop trans girls from competing, they are also taking away their ability to medically transition at a young enough age so they don't get those advantages.

Put it this way, if great mental heath care is available for everyone starting at a young age and that includes the right and the ability to medically transition pre puberty, then I think a hard separation of those who have gone through male puberty and those who haven't is valid.

There are certainly risks with that route as well.

Good post and in general I am empathetic towards the plight of trans individuals, even in regards to this stuff.

But it's all a balance to be worked out and one where ultimately you can't appease everyone's interests.

 

[hockey2112]

...occasionally the Georgetown bench players would come play pick up with us. Most of us playing were high school athletes, and they would routinely just destroy us. It was like children playing with adults. And we were all biological males. It was like we were playing another sport than them.

Now imagine you and your teammates were women, and that same scenario occurred where the varsity benchwarmers were playing against your group. How different would the outcome be? Would it go from "destroyed" to "complete nuclear annihilation"?

It’s more that there is no reason to believe that the issue will grow much larger than it is
Why would we assume that all of a sudden we’re going to get exponentially more trans people than we have historically ?

A few questions/rhetoricals:

1. How many disadvantaged biological women losing their roster spot or their ability to fairly compete to a trans athlete is too many?
2. At what specific point/scenario does it become large enough to warrant measures?
3. If/when the issue does become large enough, what measures would you support at that time?
4. If there are measures you would support at that time, what is the problem with putting those measures in place right now?

Would you accept, at least, that another idea might be that Sally potentially coming in 2nd place is not (in and of itself) reason to tell the .1 % of trans girls that they just can’t compete at all?

2nd place, or a roster spot on the team at all, has broader implications than just Sally's hurt feelings. Scholarships, for example.

 

[DaveXA]

It's kind of weird b/c I don't think Lia Thomas should compete in women's college swimming. Once they become adults the focus is clearly on winning, which makes a difference in my mind.

With kids the focus should be on other things.

It also doesn't help that at the same time these legislatures are passing these rules to stop trans girls from competing, they are also taking away their ability to medically transition at a young enough age so they don't get those advantages.

Put it this way, if great mental heath care is available for everyone starting at a young age and that includes the right and the ability to medically transition pre puberty, then I think a hard separation of those who have gone through male puberty and those who haven't is valid.

There are certainly risks with that route as well.

Well, I would say a lot of the motives behind the passing laws are more about scoring political points than anything else. It's viewed as low hanging fruit and an easy way to farm votes. I think most here are talking more from an actual competition fairness perspective.

 

[hockey2112]

As far as your daughter goes... I'm not sure how many trans girls that go through hormone suppressants for multiple years, have gender reassignment surgery and so on that will be needed to play pro sports will end up better than her (assuming she's good enough to go pro)? That seems like a pretty slim chance of happening.

Slim chance? That is certainly worse than "no chance". Why should there be a chance at all?

Is the reason your daughter injecting herself with those performance-enhancing substance because she has a medical condition that requires it, or is it because she doesn't want to lose? Because if it's b/c she has a medical condition then sure... but if not that goes back to my point that I feel like some people think that this is some sort of choice trans girls have and are making to get some sort of competitive advantage.

I don't subscribe to the belief that men are transitioning specifically to gain a competitive advantage. I do believe that men and women who choose to transition are doing so because that is who they are, or who they perceive themselves to be. I support their ability to be who they are/want to be, and I admire them for having the courage to proceed in that fashion.

But the biological fact is that a male athlete will almost certainly possess physical advantages over a biological woman, so those advantages come along as a byproduct of the transition. Why should my daughter be required to accept those advantages of her trans opponent? "Life's unfair"?

Again, the Penn State swimmer scenario seems to encapsulate this whole issue so clearly, so much so that I have difficulty understanding the argument for including trans athletes in women's sports. https://www.espn.com/college-sports...er-athlete-win-division-national-championship

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

They have co-ed leagues for those who don’t care about the competitive advantage & just want to play sports.

I haven't seen those at the high school level around here.

 

[JenningsTruckers]

Not that it would change your position, but it's already here to stay. No putting that genie back in the bottle. And having been around a number of trans people, it doesn't need to. They're trying to find their way through life like the rest of us.

Thumbs up !

 

[DaveXA]

It's kind of weird b/c I don't think Lia Thomas should compete in women's college swimming. Once they become adults the focus is clearly on winning, which makes a difference in my mind.

With kids the focus should be on other things.

It also doesn't help that at the same time these legislatures are passing these rules to stop trans girls from competing, they are also taking away their ability to medically transition at a young enough age so they don't get those advantages.

Put it this way, if great mental heath care is available for everyone starting at a young age and that includes the right and the ability to medically transition pre puberty, then I think a hard separation of those who have gone through male puberty and those who haven't is valid.

There are certainly risks with that route as well.

Fwiw, I do think that youth sports below high school, the focus is less about winning and more about the other things, but once you get into high school, it gets a lot more competitive and there's a larger focus on winning. That's when you start getting college scouts looking at potential recruits and their focus is usually on the best of the best in high schools. So trans at the high school level will have a different impact on parents who have competitive kids and are trying to do well enough to maybe impress those scouts.

 

[CapitalCitySaint]

I haven't seen those at the high school level around here.

Well perhaps then that's a change that can be made as the trans population grows. Not sure if there's liability there though that could be the reason schools have not offered it. There are also organized sports leagues outside of schools that kids can participate in. My son played soccer until high school and did it via a youth league and I know for a fact that some of them have co-ed.

 

[DaveXA]

I haven't seen those at the high school level around here.

There are club sports like Vienna Youth Incorporated-VYI that are semi-competitive. It's more of a fun thing for kids to get involved with and not really close to the level high school team sports. There are some leagues, particularly in volleyball that are hyper-competitive and they'll take all your money. They're usually the ones to get first dibs on their high school teams.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

Now imagine you and your teammates were women, and that same scenario occurred where the varsity benchwarmers were playing against your group. How different would the outcome be? Would it go from "destroyed" to "complete nuclear annihilation"?

I think a better example would be when some of us would play pickup with women. We'd have mixed teams, boys vs girls and so on. It was a ton of fun actually. Yes, when it was men vs women, we'd win every time, but it was fun for everyone. And when we had mixed teams, it was a lot of fun, with the women getting just as much quality time as the guys. Among non-pros but still athletes from different sports the difference wasn't as big as you seem to be making it out to be. Yes, it's there, but it's not like a non-talented male could dominate a talented woman.

A few questions/rhetoricals:

1. How many disadvantaged biological women losing their roster spot or their ability to fairly compete to a trans athlete is too many?
2. At what specific point/scenario does it become large enough to warrant measures?
3. If/when the issue does become large enough, what measures would you support at that time?
4. If there are measures you would support at that time, what is the problem with putting those measures in place right now?

1. This is a weird question because I don't think people are entitled to roster spots. It's just such a foreign way of thinking about it for me for youth sports. I don't think there are going to be that many trans girls. Maybe I'm naive about it.
2. If girls don't feel safe competing then it warrants measures to prevent it from happening.
3. Depends on what is exactly happening and why. Under any scenario I think a trans girl who has been on puberty blockers and not gone through male puberty, and has started HRT should be allowed to play on girls youth sports teams. For trans girls who have not, if their presence is actually preventing girls from wanting to play, then they should not be able to play. But if it's just because they win, then I'm not as concerned.
4. The problem is I think trans girls are particularly vulnerable and need mental health outlets and youth sports is a great way to achieve that outlet.

2nd place, or a roster spot on the team at all, has broader implications than just Sally's hurt feelings. Scholarships, for example.

Well considering I don't think anyone who has gone through male puberty should be playing women's sports past 18, I don't think we disagree on this. That being said, having coached youth sports for about 12 years now, I think too many adults take youth sports too seriously and worry about things like scholarships and so on. I have no idea about you and your kid, so I'm not speaking directly about you, but it reminds a bit (however unintentionally) of some of the worst aspects of youth sports.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

Well perhaps then that's a change that can be made as the trans population grows. Not sure if there's liability there though that could be the reason schools have not offered it. There are also organized sports leagues outside of schools that kids can participate in. My son played soccer until high school and did it via a youth league and I know for a fact that some of them have co-ed.

I mean I think that would be awesome if that happens, as I said, my main concern is that every kid gets a chance to play in youth sports in an environment they feel comfortable in. In a lot of places that does not exist outside of school sports.

 

[CapitalCitySaint]

Not that it would change your position, but it's already here to stay. No putting that genie back in the bottle. And having been around a number of trans people, it doesn't need to. They're trying to find their way through life like the rest of us.

I will preface my following comments with this: In no way am I saying that trans/gay people are deformed. Okay, now that this is out of the way....

It's always amazing to me that people see other humans with physical deformities THAT THEY WERE BORN WITH and accept that something got crossed while developing in the womb or a genetic defect but refuse to acknowledge when it comes to being LGBT, they can't accept that sometimes the internal wiring & chemicals get mixed up as well. In a perfect world, it would all be very straight forward. I'm sure LGBT people would prefer a much easier existence without the conflict of who they are on the inside not matching what they feel in the brain or the external appearance.

It still doesn't change the fact that natural born males are inherently stronger than natural born females.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

Fwiw, I do think that youth sports below high school, the focus is less about winning and more about the other things, but once you get into high school, it gets a lot more competitive and there's a larger focus on winning. That's when you start getting college scouts looking at potential recruits and their focus is usually on the best of the best in high schools. So trans at the high school level will have a different impact on parents who have competitive kids and are trying to do well enough to maybe impress those scouts.

This is probably true... Most of my experience is with younger age groups. I just find people getting super worked about a bunch of kids winning or losing is a bit weird.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

A few questions/rhetoricals:

1. How many disadvantaged biological women losing their roster spot or their ability to fairly compete to a trans athlete is too many?
2. At what specific point/scenario does it become large enough to warrant measures?
3. If/when the issue does become large enough, what measures would you support at that time?
4. If there are measures you would support at that time, what is the problem with putting those measures in place right now?

faetious answer - at the point where there are more trans athletes that towns with Sharia law passed in them


2nd place, or a roster spot on the team at all, has broader implications than just Sally's hurt feelings. Scholarships, for example.

but the honest question that gets to the heart of all of this - why are you putting Sally's feelings over Trans Sally's feelings?

 

[DaveXA]

This is probably true... Most of my experience is with younger age groups. I just find people getting super worked about a bunch of kids winning or losing is a bit weird.

Agreed. I do think the winning in sports thing is so focused on at the professional and collegiate levels that it trickles down to the youth levels through the parents. I think most people live somewhat vicariously through their kids and winning even at that young age feels good. But it certainly should be secondary to the kids emotional and physical development, and teach kids that losing is part of the sports experience as well.