Trans athletes make great gains, yet resentment still flares (1 Viewer)

[SaintInBucLand]

Sally: there is the probability that if you come up against the statistically highly unlikely chance that you compete against a trans girl you might not win
Trans Sally: you have no place here

This thread/discussion is not about Sally v Trans Sally. It’s about winning v participating
The very essence of competition is that there is no guarantee that you will win
But the very essence of our social contract should be that if you want to participate, you should be able to

We should not be prioritizing the chance of winning over the ability to participate

So what you are telling biological females. In time, you will not have any chance what so ever of placing high in competitions where physical strength gives you an advantage. Sure you can compete, but you will no longer win.

 

[Crzycjunx76]

Sally: there is the probability that if you come up against the statistically highly unlikely chance that you compete against a trans girl you might not win

might=have legitimately a near zero probabibility of defeating an average athlete with a male birth sex.

In short, if you do find yourself in the unlikely situation of competing against a MtF athlete, you no longer have a path to competition.

 

[kizzy821]

I watched/read so many videos and articles on this yesterday (I only sleep about 2 hours tops so I went down a rabbit hole).

And just like with every other issue under the sun, people are going to believe what they want to believe.

They claim we should wait for the science. FINA consulted the science and determined boys have a physical advantage over girls.

The trans community (in general) rejects it and says that ALLL the science isn't in.

So what they really mean is they'll accept the science IF it favors them.

 

[Madmarsha]

The problem with the argument of the pro-trans atheletes side is they're talking out of both sides of their mouth.

On the one hand they say that transitioning is NOT a great devastation to the body going through puberty; on the other, they say that transitioning is SUCH a devastation to the body that the male-born transathletes have depleted themselves of all attributes that would give an athletic advantage.

You can't have a discussion with someone who wants to accept something as a truth AND refute it at the same time.

 

[DaveXA]

Sally: there is the probability that if you come up against the statistically highly unlikely chance that you compete against a trans girl you might not win
Trans Sally: you have no place here

This thread/discussion is not about Sally v Trans Sally. It’s about winning v participating
The very essence of competition is that there is no guarantee that you will win
But the very essence of our social contract should be that if you want to participate, you should be able to

We should not be prioritizing the chance of winning over the ability to participate

Well, it is about winning, particularly in high school athletics. Collegiate scouts from say the SEC will rarely give much thought to HS athletes who finish 2nd or 3rd in a given competition.

I would say prioritize participation in sports say up to 8th or even 9th grade. But beyond that, winning gets prioritized for obvious reasons. Beyond 9th grade, there are club sports (sometimes even co-ed) available for people who want to participate where winning isn't as big a deal.

 

[kizzy821]

The problem with the argument of the pro-trans atheletes side is they're talking out of both sides of their mouth.

On the one hand they say that transitioning is NOT a great devastation to the body going through puberty; on the other, they say that transitioning is SUCH a devastation to the body that the male-born transathletes have depleted themselves of all attributes that would give an athletic advantage.

You can't have a discussion with someone who wants to accept something as a truth AND refute it at the same time.

They also champion for "acceptance" meaning everybody else needs to accept them into spaces not meant for them. Yet they can't accept who they were born as.

Acceptance is good for one group but not the other. So much hypocrisy.

 

[SaintInBucLand]

Dammit, sorry, I missed that part. It definitely sounds like you handled it the right way.

Yeah but it doesn't feel like it was the right way, because we talked about it yesterday and she is not going to bother with track next year(her senior year) because in her words, "what's the point, I won't even get to start." Because the trans girls on the team both run in the same sprints as her and she will never be able to compete for a spot on the starting team.

 

[DaveXA]

Yeah but it doesn't feel like it was the right way, because we talked about it yesterday and she is not going to bother with track next year(her senior year) because in her words, "what's the point, I won't even get to start." Because the trans girls on the team both run in the same sprints as her and she will never be able to compete for a spot on the starting team.

Maybe suggest she should talk to the coach about the issue? Let the coach know her issues and if there's anything they can do to allow her to compete fairly for a starting spot?

If that doesn't work, I think she should take this to the school board or HS athletic association in the state you're in and see if there is any recourse for her.

I know she might be overwhelmed by doing all of that, but maybe she'd be someone who would be an advocate for other girls facing the same issues?

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

So what you are telling biological females. In time, you will not have any chance what so ever of placing high in competitions where physical strength gives you an advantage. Sure you can compete, but you will no longer win.

Y’all seem to expand your argument beyond scope to make it work - the likelihood that a biological female athlete will run up against this issue is near zero

If I was addressing a room of 10,000 biological girl athletes, I might frame it like, “over the course of your athletic career, 10-20 of you might compete against a trans athlete and every indication is that you will be at a competitive disadvantage- 9980 of you will never even have to worry about this. So what we have to figure out is, ‘does the probability that 20 of you will come in 2nd place instead of first mean that we should pass laws that say no trans girl should ever be allowed to participate in athletic competition?’

Having taught teen girls for about two decades, I feel there is a 65% chance that they would opt for inclusion vs exclusion
(more likely as a group they would vote for exclusion and then email later saying they’d thought about it and want to change their vote)

 

[saint_drago]

I have two little girls and if they worked hard in a sport and lost to a girl who was born a male I'm sure I'd feel some type of way. But at the same time if one of my daughters turns out to be a transgender person I would want them to be able to compete. I wouldn't want them to be excluded but I would also know that it would be extremely unfair to the other girls. If there was a way they could compete against other trans people that would be fair but there aren't enough trans people to have teams and leagues.

This is a tough one. Fairness/competitive balance vs inclusion.

 

[DaveXA]

Y’all seem to expand your argument beyond scope to make it work - the likelihood that a biological female athlete will run up against this issue is near zero

If I was addressing a room of 10,000 biological girl athletes, I might frame it like, “over the course of your athletic career, 10-20 of you might compete against a trans athlete and every indication is that you will be at a competitive disadvantage- 9980 of you will never even have to worry about this. So what we have to figure out is, ‘does the probability that 20 of you will come in 2nd place instead of first mean that we should pass laws that say no trans girl should ever be allowed to participate in athletic competition?’

Having taught teen girls for about two decades, I feel there is a 65% chance that they would opt for inclusion vs exclusion
(more likely as a group they would vote for exclusion and then email later saying they’d thought about it and want to change their vote)

You're telling a guy it's near zero who has a daughter who can't start. It's not near zero for him and his daughter. It's actually happening. I mean, I know we shouldn't make generalizations based on anecdotal scenarios, but...yeah.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

They also champion for "acceptance" meaning everybody else needs to accept them into spaces not meant for them.

I’d ask you to sit with this statement for a minute and really see what you are saying

 

[kizzy821]

I’d ask you to sit with this statement for a minute and really see what you are saying

I've been laying with it all night. Does that count?

I know exactly what I'm saying: Not everything is meant for everybody.

If you're a dude, the women's swim team is not meant for you.

If you're 12, the high school football team is not meant for you.

If you're a size 2, the Weight Watchers support group is not meant for you.

If you're able-bodied, the Paralympics are not meant for you.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

You're telling a guy it's near zero who has a daughter who can't start. It's not near zero for him and his daughter. It's actually happening. I mean, I know we shouldn't make generalizations based on anecdotal scenarios, but...yeah.

Is that appreciably different than a kid being starting QB on a HS team and then the school district combines 2-3 schools and now the kid is not starting anymore?
Is it anecdotally different?

 

[sammymvpknight]

Aside from being creepy as crap…biobanding is probably the most equitable for all side.

Bio-banding in junior soccer players: a pilot study - BMC Research Notes

Objective Bio-banding (BB) has been introduced to account for varying maturity and to improve the talent development of junior soccer players. To date, research that investigated the physiological and technical effects of BB is sparse. Therefore, the aim of the study was to compare effects of BB...

bmcresnotes.biomedcentral.com

Create developmental production norms based on development. Let boys play with girls if they fit into the same band. In this scenario, only a tiny fraction of women will be playing against athletic men. The transgender “women” will be play against men.

The problem is that there will be less athletic men playing against women…and this method also does not give a clear path to allow a female winner.

That’s what I find so enjoyable about this topic…I enjoy the women's rights crowd trying to rationalize this one.