Trans athletes make great gains, yet resentment still flares (7 Viewers)

[SaintInBucLand]

I'm so sick of men smearing their maleness over every damn thing. Go away.

Learn how to accept being told NO. You think you're a woman? Then get used to "NO."

Shut up. Go have a seat. Lick your wounds and be thankful you have a team to play on at all.

That is what I always thought of this. It felt like men were just pushing their way into aspects and culture that belong to women.

Unfortunately, your views on this are what get labeled as terfs. Which stands for trans exclusionary radical feminist. Yes they came up with a term to label women for being.. well, women.

 

[CapitalCitySaint]

That is what I always thought of this. It felt like men were just pushing their way into aspects and culture that belong to women.

Unfortunately, your views on this are what get labeled as terfs. Which stands for trans exclusionary radical feminist. Yes they came up with a term to label women for being.. well, women.

Wow.

Man , we literally can’t have ish in this hole.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

So a sizable chunk of this thread is posters who negate trans identity out of hand (ccs, I know you’re not one) - just straight up denying the way another identifies
So those posters aren’t actually discussing the issue, they’re just refusing to acknowledge the premise

I was asked to consider the anecdotes of a father of a girl whose place in the track team is jeopardized by 2 trans athletes- and I do/did. It sucks and should rightly be weighed in the fairness/inclusion discussion
HOWEVER
We also have a father who has anecdotes about his kids actually transitioning- a poster who has at least 2nd hand information about this- who can and did shed as much light on this issue as anyone in this thread
And yet that voice is not really asked much of anything

At least the ‘negating’ posters have the good grace to not say that poster or his kids are liars or delusional- but that’s certainly what their posts imply

If you don’t think that trans females have a separate identity from men - if you think this is all some false flag to keep manspreading into previously restricted areas - just say that and be done

If you are at least willing to engage in the question, then I think you should be seeking perspective from both father’s anecdotes

That’s what I think

 

[rajncajn]

If you are at least willing to engage in the question, then I think you should be seeking perspective from both father’s anecdotes

I missed the post from the father with transitioning kids. I'd be interested in reading from that perspective. What post number is it?

 

[kizzy821]

So a sizable chunk of this thread is posters who negate trans identity out of hand (ccs, I know you’re not one) - just straight up denying the way another identifies
So those posters aren’t actually discussing the issue, they’re just refusing to acknowledge the premise

I was asked to consider the anecdotes of a father of a girl whose place in the track team is jeopardized by 2 trans athletes- and I do/did. It sucks and should rightly be weighed in the fairness/inclusion discussion
HOWEVER
We also have a father who has anecdotes about his kids actually transitioning- a poster who has at least 2nd hand information about this- who can and did shed as much light on this issue as anyone in this thread
And yet that voice is not really asked much of anything

At least the ‘negating’ posters have the good grace to not say that poster or his kids are liars or delusional- but that’s certainly what their posts imply

If you don’t think that trans females have a separate identity from men - if you think this is all some false flag to keep manspreading into previously restricted areas - just say that and be done

If you are at least willing to engage in the question, then I think you should be seeking perspective from both father’s anecdotes

That’s what I think

For reasons unbeknownst to me, you continue conflating issues about trans women on female sports teams - with issues about trans individuals existing at all.

I have no doubt there's a large contingent of people who loathe their existence, but most in this thread have consistently cited reasons against their existence on female sports teams.

But you have straw manned the hell out of this topic. One of the best displays of Straw Mannery I have ever seen.

And I get it. It's much easier to argue in favor of their existence than it is to argue in favor of them competing against women.

No one gives a sheet about how you identify. Identify as an oak tree and poop acorns. I. Don't. Care. Sincerely, I don't.

But when your right to self-identify impinges on and erodes the rights of women - I'm going to have an issue with you. And I have said as much. Over and over. Everyone has.

But you insist we have OTHER reasons and have just failed to share them.

You won't accept our explanations unless it validates what you already believe.

 

[kizzy821]

That is what I always thought of this. It felt like men were just pushing their way into aspects and culture that belong to women.

Unfortunately, your views on this are what get labeled as terfs. Which stands for trans exclusionary radical feminist. Yes they came up with a term to label women for being.. well, women.

I had to go look up terf. There's always a name for women who don't fall in line with what the mens say we should.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

I missed the post from the father with transitioning kids. I'd be interested in reading from that perspective. What post number is it?

i'll look, but it was at least a week ago (i think) so it's many pages back

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

For reasons unbeknownst to me, you continue conflating issues about trans women on female sports teams - with issues about trans individuals existing at all.

I have no doubt there's a large contingent of people who loathe their existence, but most in this thread have consistently cited reasons against their existence on female sports teams.

But you have straw manned the hell out of this topic. One of the best displays of Straw Mannery I have ever seen.

And I get it. It's much easier to argue in favor of their existence than it is to argue in favor of them competing against women.

No one gives a sheet about how you identify. Identify as an oak tree and poop acorns. I. Don't. Care. Sincerely, I don't.

But when your right to self-identify impinges on and erodes the rights of women - I'm going to have an issue with you. And I have said as much. Over and over. Everyone has.

But you insist we have OTHER reasons and have just failed to share them.

You won't accept our explanations unless it validates what you already believe.

(not kidding/not deflecting - i am always interested in improving my rhetoric, so i would appreciate having the 'straw man' pointed out)

so to put this in overbroad terms, you seem to be casting this in victim/oppressor terms - a construction i am completely fine with and one that i would have no problem citing in most 'social/cultural issue' discussions
but that framing only works if one denies trans identity
"I identify as a trans woman"
"cool whatever, identify as a tree if you want"
"I indentify as a trans woman athlete"
"aw, hellz naw, you're a man"
you seem to see this as a member of 49.48% of the population trying to steal back spots that women fought hard to get (and they did and i fully acknowledge that women fought hard to get them and that they should be protected - i don't think anything in my post history would show otherwise)
AND if Trans issues seemed a recent development and trans women wanting to compete in female sports was one of the first instances we met, i'd be inclined to agree
BUT some form or Trans identity seems to have been around as long as humans have (4500 years ago might have been the earliest documentations) - so i tend to see them much more in the .05% of the bell curve - not part of the overwhelming patriarchical system, not people who are trying to steal spots, just people who are inclusion according to their identity

 

[Crzycjunx76]

"I identify as a trans woman"
"cool whatever, identify as a tree if you want"
"I indentify as a trans woman athlete"
"aw, hellz naw, you're a man"

That is an easy distinction to make.

I respect your gender identity, i will use your pronouns, and treat you as such. Your gender is female.

As an athlete the line is biological sex. No surgery, hormones, etc that we presently have will change your birth sex. Your sex is male. Until we can grow a new body and transfer conciousness biological sex is immutable.

Is a lesbian who is attracted to the female sex biggoted because they turn down a MtF trans person? Hell no. They can have full respect of the individuals gender and still have the right to their sexual orientation.

 

[Icon]

For reasons unbeknownst to me, you continue conflating issues about trans women on female sports teams - with issues about trans individuals existing at all.

I have no doubt there's a large contingent of people who loathe their existence, but most in this thread have consistently cited reasons against their existence on female sports teams.

But you have straw manned the hell out of this topic. One of the best displays of Straw Mannery I have ever seen.

And I get it. It's much easier to argue in favor of their existence than it is to argue in favor of them competing against women.

No one gives a sheet about how you identify. Identify as an oak tree and poop acorns. I. Don't. Care. Sincerely, I don't.

But when your right to self-identify impinges on and erodes the rights of women - I'm going to have an issue with you. And I have said as much. Over and over. Everyone has.

But you insist we have OTHER reasons and have just failed to share them.

You won't accept our explanations unless it validates what you already believe.

Your posts have been highly entertaining over the last few weeks. Whether I've agreed with all of them or not is irrelevant, the presentation style has simply been

You absolutely nailed this one, though.

 

[sammymvpknight]

Transgender individuals are real people. Even if you prefer to think it’s either not real or mental illness, these individuals like all individuals need love and empathy. It’s a really tough topic. I do think that some are using it as a competitive advantage loophole, but I think most just want to feel like they belong. I wish there was a more clear solution that doesn’t put one group of individuals at a disadvantage.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

Transgender individuals are real people. Even if you prefer to think it’s either not real or mental illness, these individuals like all individuals need love and empathy. It’s a really tough topic. I do think that some are using it as a competitive advantage loophole, but I think most just want to feel like they belong. I wish there was a more clear solution that doesn’t put one group of individuals at a disadvantage.

I think/hope everyone can agree with this
Well said

 

[kizzy821]

(not kidding/not deflecting - i am always interested in improving my rhetoric, so i would appreciate having the 'straw man' pointed out)

so to put this in overbroad terms, you seem to be casting this in victim/oppressor terms - a construction i am completely fine with and one that i would have no problem citing in most 'social/cultural issue' discussions
but that framing only works if one denies trans identity
"I identify as a trans woman"
"cool whatever, identify as a tree if you want"
"I indentify as a trans woman athlete"
"aw, hellz naw, you're a man"
you seem to see this as a member of 49.48% of the population trying to steal back spots that women fought hard to get (and they did and i fully acknowledge that women fought hard to get them and that they should be protected - i don't think anything in my post history would show otherwise)
AND if Trans issues seemed a recent development and trans women wanting to compete in female sports was one of the first instances we met, i'd be inclined to agree
BUT some form or Trans identity seems to have been around as long as humans have (4500 years ago might have been the earliest documentations) - so i tend to see them much more in the .05% of the bell curve - not part of the overwhelming patriarchical system, not people who are trying to steal spots, just people who are inclusion according to their identity

Strawman

Me: The state of pop culture suggests this issue will continue to grow
You: There you go saying being transgender is a choice to gain competitive advantages

Me: Trans athletes already have a team to compete on.
You: How can you support exclusion.

I'm fine with the victim/oppressor framework too. Throughout all space and time, the oppressor is almost always a man. And that POV works because trans women were born as men. They are forever men. Albeit men who identify as women.

See? Acknowledging their biology, while not denying their identity.

I have nothing to back it up, but I'd bet that biology plays a bigger role in our existence than identity. Biology is hardwired. Identity is a construct.

That's what I've learned from this thread: gender is a social construct. Therefore, your gender identity - be it the one you were born with or the one you identify with - is also a construct. It's manufactured. It's not authentic.

So. In the absence of gender, how can we divvy up sports teams so that the competition is fair? Hmmm.

Anyway, for the umpteenth time - identify with whatever your mind, heart and soul tell you to. But recognize that your identity is not the be all and end all. It doesn't dictate what clubs you get into or what jobs you get. It doesn't get you onto the women's swim team. It doesn't dictate anything. It's only a construct... It's not real.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

That is an easy distinction to make.

I respect your gender identity, i will use your pronouns, and treat you as such. Your gender is female.

As an athlete the line is biological sex. No surgery, hormones, etc that we presently have will change your birth sex. Your sex is male. Until we can grow a new body and transfer conciousness biological sex is immutable.

Is a lesbian who is attracted to the female sex biggoted because they turn down a MtF trans person? Hell no. They can have full respect of the individuals gender and still have the right to their sexual orientation.

not sure how the last paragraph fits into the discussion

the other part is one of the reasons why this thread is 71 pages long
there isn't an easy solution no matter the desire to simplify it - and it's all stuff said dozens and doxens of times on both sides
we've discussed MANY times before how biological sex (and the accompanying hormones, et al) gives advantage, but it's certainly not the only thing since every male on this board could find a woman stronger, faster and or with more stamina than they have
some have offered a 3rd way - rec leagues or what have you - seems sensible to some; seems like "seperate but equal" top others. This is a population that does not have (and almost certainly never will) enough participants to field much competition
how many trans track athletes would compete in seperate events at the Louisiana HS State championships?
or swimmers
how many could even fill out one basletball team to say nothing of enough for a tournament?

so the solution for some is 'compete per your birth sex'
so this means trans women (born male but have transitioned and may have breasts and (mostly) feminine features - these athletes dress in the same locker room as the boys?
they wear speedos for swimming?
they wear tanks/no bras for track or basketball?
that seems both seperate and unequal

 

[kizzy821]

not sure how the last paragraph fits into the discussion

the other part is one of the reasons why this thread is 71 pages long
there isn't an easy solution no matter the desire to simplify it - and it's all stuff said dozens and doxens of times on both sides
we've discussed MANY times before how biological sex (and the accompanying hormones, et al) gives advantage, but it's certainly not the only thing since every male on this board could find a woman stronger, faster and or with more stamina than they have
some have offered a 3rd way - rec leagues or what have you - seems sensible to some; seems like "seperate but equal" top others. This is a population that does not have (and almost certainly never will) enough participants to field much competition
how many trans track athletes would compete in seperate events at the Louisiana HS State championships?
or swimmers
how many could even fill out one basletball team to say nothing of enough for a tournament?

so the solution for some is 'compete per your birth sex'
so this means trans women (born male but have transitioned and may have breasts and (mostly) feminine features - these athletes dress in the same locker room as the boys?
they wear speedos for swimming?
they wear tanks/no bras for track or basketball?
that seems both seperate and unequal

I've actually thought about this (growing boobs and being in the men's locker room).

But if the right to compete is what matters the most... You'll find a way to deal.

Arrive early. Leave late.

Growing boobs is not a mandate to compete. That was literally a choice.