Trans athletes make great gains, yet resentment still flares (4 Viewers)

(not kidding/not deflecting - i am always interested in improving my rhetoric, so i would appreciate having the 'straw man' pointed out)

so to put this in overbroad terms, you seem to be casting this in victim/oppressor terms - a construction i am completely fine with and one that i would have no problem citing in most 'social/cultural issue' discussions
but that framing only works if one denies trans identity
"I identify as a trans woman"
"cool whatever, identify as a tree if you want"
"I indentify as a trans woman athlete"
"aw, hellz naw, you're a man"
you seem to see this as a member of 49.48% of the population trying to steal back spots that women fought hard to get (and they did and i fully acknowledge that women fought hard to get them and that they should be protected - i don't think anything in my post history would show otherwise)
AND if Trans issues seemed a recent development and trans women wanting to compete in female sports was one of the first instances we met, i'd be inclined to agree
BUT some form or Trans identity seems to have been around as long as humans have (4500 years ago might have been the earliest documentations) - so i tend to see them much more in the .05% of the bell curve - not part of the overwhelming patriarchical system, not people who are trying to steal spots, just people who are inclusion according to their identity
You realize that identifying as a trans woman athlete is different than participating as a natural born woman athlete?

Identify as you wish but no, you can’t participate in sports with those who are natural born women athletes because you have an inherent advantage that makes the competition unfair.

Why is that so hard for you to wrap your brain around???
 
So a sizable chunk of this thread is posters who negate trans identity out of hand (ccs, I know you’re not one) - just straight up denying the way another identifies
That's a load of BS.

And the issue isn't accepting someone's identity; rather, it is that you identifying as something doesn't physically make you that which you identify as.
 
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You realize that identifying as a trans woman athlete is different than participating as a natural born woman athlete?

Identify as you wish but no, you can’t participate in sports with those who are natural born women athletes because you have an inherent advantage that makes the competition unfair.

Why is that so hard for you to wrap your brain around???
I think his stance is that accepting the trans women onto the team matters more than fairness.

Why? I don't know.

I don't understand why a trans person's acceptance should supersede fairness.
 
For reasons unbeknownst to me, you continue conflating issues about trans women on female sports teams - with issues about trans individuals existing at all.

I have no doubt there's a large contingent of people who loathe their existence, but most in this thread have consistently cited reasons against their existence on female sports teams.

But you have straw manned the hell out of this topic. One of the best displays of Straw Mannery I have ever seen.

And I get it. It's much easier to argue in favor of their existence than it is to argue in favor of them competing against women.

No one gives a sheet about how you identify. Identify as an oak tree and poop acorns. I. Don't. Care. Sincerely, I don't.

But when your right to self-identify impinges on and erodes the rights of women - I'm going to have an issue with you. And I have said as much. Over and over. Everyone has.

But you insist we have OTHER reasons and have just failed to share them.

You won't accept our explanations unless it validates what you already believe.
Awesome , well said , Best Post !!!
 
You realize that identifying as a trans woman athlete is different than participating as a natural born woman athlete?

Identify as you wish but no, you can’t participate in sports with those who are natural born women athletes because you have an inherent advantage that makes the competition unfair.

Why is that so hard for you to wrap your brain around???
of course i see the advantage and have said so many times (and have also included that birth sex is not the only factor in competitive advantage as it would be fairly easy to find women who could out compete any man in this thread)
BUT, practically there are only two options present (i've already explained why i didn't think the 'third' option was feasible atm and probably never)
- allow trans girls to compete according to their identity (YES, i understand that this disadvantages >.05% of biological girl athletes)
- ban participation according to identity

it's an apples to oranges comparison
but i'm putting more ethical weight behind the chance to participate (and accepting identity) than i am winning (and denying identity)
 
Strawman

Me: The state of pop culture suggests this issue will continue to grow
You: There you go saying being transgender is a choice to gain competitive advantages

Me: Trans athletes already have a team to compete on.
You: How can you support exclusion.

I'm fine with the victim/oppressor framework too. Throughout all space and time, the oppressor is almost always a man. And that POV works because trans women were born as men. They are forever men. Albeit men who identify as women.

See? Acknowledging their biology, while not denying their identity.

I have nothing to back it up, but I'd bet that biology plays a bigger role in our existence than identity. Biology is hardwired. Identity is a construct.

That's what I've learned from this thread: gender is a social construct. Therefore, your gender identity - be it the one you were born with or the one you identify with - is also a construct. It's manufactured. It's not authentic.

So. In the absence of gender, how can we divvy up sports teams so that the competition is fair? Hmmm.

Anyway, for the umpteenth time - identify with whatever your mind, heart and soul tell you to. But recognize that your identity is not the be all and end all. It doesn't dictate what clubs you get into or what jobs you get. It doesn't get you onto the women's swim team. It doesn't dictate anything. It's only a construct... It's not real.
neithr of thse are strong me
- the first is the logical extension of your argument (you might could say it it's an ab absurdum fallacy, but i don't think so) - i already 'defended' this point saying that unless you are arguing that there is some biological/environmental reason we'd get mkore trans people, then you do think it's a choice - especially when you continue to frame trans women as part of some men's movement to infiltrate female sports

- and the second one is similar:
trans girl athlete: "I want to compete"
"boys team is over there"
TGA: "but i'm not a boy"
"doesn't matter, that's you option"
how is that not excusionary?
 
Is a lesbian who is attracted to the female sex biggoted because they turn down a MtF trans person? Hell no. They can have full respect of the individuals gender and still have the right to their sexual orientation.
According to some, yes. "If you don't date a transgender person you are transphobic" is a thing.
 
neithr of thse are strong me
- the first is the logical extension of your argument (you might could say it it's an ab absurdum fallacy, but i don't think so) - i already 'defended' this point saying that unless you are arguing that there is some biological/environmental reason we'd get mkore trans people, then you do think it's a choice - especially when you continue to frame trans women as part of some men's movement to infiltrate female sports

- and the second one is similar:
trans girl athlete: "I want to compete"
"boys team is over there"
TGA: "but i'm not a boy"
"doesn't matter, that's you option"
how is that not excusionary?
Because it doesn’t matter how the trans athlete identifies. The competition fairness based on birth gender is what matters and decides what team the athlete will play on. They aren’t excluded from anything other than playing on the team that their biological traits determines they have an advantage over.
 
neithr of thse are strong me
- the first is the logical extension of your argument (you might could say it it's an ab absurdum fallacy, but i don't think so) - i already 'defended' this point saying that unless you are arguing that there is some biological/environmental reason we'd get mkore trans people, then you do think it's a choice - especially when you continue to frame trans women as part of some men's movement to infiltrate female sports

- and the second one is similar:
trans girl athlete: "I want to compete"
"boys team is over there"
TGA: "but i'm not a boy"
"doesn't matter, that's you option"
how is that not excusionary?
We can disagree about whether to call them straw men, but how does the bolded make sense; how is that a logical conclusion?

You suggested everybody ask questions of the two fathers in the thread with trans kids. Well, those same two fathers already shared that more people are identifying as trans than in the past. Do they think it's a choice? No. But if I say it, then I'm suggesting it's a choice...

TBT, I don't know if it's a choice and I don't think it's relevant to the discussion. Regardless of how people come to be trans - this discussion is about what to do afterwards (re: sports).

I don't frame crime and atrocities committed by men as "Some men's movement to destroy society," but it's happening, nonetheless.

It doesn't have to be an organized conspiracy in order to be effective.

That second example is not exclusionary. That's telling someone where to line up. You want to compete? The line is over there.

Just because you're excluded from one category doesn't mean you're excluded from them all.
 
- allow trans girls to compete according to their identity (YES, i understand that this disadvantages >.05% of biological girl athletes)
- ban participation according to identity

it's an apples to oranges comparison
but i'm putting more ethical weight behind the chance to participate (and accepting identity) than i am winning (and denying identity)
Banning participation according to identity does not equal banning their chance to participate. It means banning their chance to participate against people who, as a whole, are naturally physically impaired by comparison. They still have a choice, regardless of how it feels to them. It may come down to choosing transforming medical & pharmaceutical procedures that make them physically unable to compete against their biological peers, but that's still a choice. Girls have no other choice. They can either compete in their field through hard work & dedication or they can't and they shouldn't have to face a field that is, by choice, stacked against them.
 
@JenningsTruckers my insert quotes function isn't working for some reason, but I had to look that up to make sure it wasn't an article from the Onion. Look at the grin on his face. Awwww... He just wanted the right to compete :rolleyes:

(did you make it so that people can't quote you? Is that a profile option?! Tell me, lol. I can quote everyone else)
 
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neithr of thse are strong me
- the first is the logical extension of your argument (you might could say it it's an ab absurdum fallacy, but i don't think so) - i already 'defended' this point saying that unless you are arguing that there is some biological/environmental reason we'd get mkore trans people, then you do think it's a choice - especially when you continue to frame trans women as part of some men's movement to infiltrate female sports

- and the second one is similar:
trans girl athlete: "I want to compete"
"boys team is over there"
TGA: "but i'm not a boy"
"doesn't matter, that's you option"
how is that not excusionary?

At what point are you going to stop ignoring that the men-women division in sports is not man identity - woman identity, but rather it is male of the species - female of the species? Never, it seems.

TGA: "I want to compete"
Us transphobic bigots: "We'll create a TG division for you."
TGA: "I want to compete against women"
UTFB: "The current division is between the males of the species and females of the species. But in your division, you'll compete with women just like you"
TGA: "but why can't I compete against these women?"
UTFB: "Because they are females of our species, and you are not".
TGA: "That's unfair".
UTFB: "Live is unfair. Life has been unfair for the females of our species since times untold. Life is unfair to people born with dwarfism. Life is unfair to people born with spina bifida. Life is unfair to people born with down's syndrome. I can keep on going for a long, long time, but I'll leave it at that. Here's a helmet".
 
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- allow trans girls to compete according to their identity (YES, i understand that this disadvantages >.05% of biological girl athletes
That's not how it works. I already explained it to you. But mathz are not your forte.

it's an apples to oranges comparison
but i'm putting more ethical weight behind the chance to participate (and accepting identity) than i am winning (and denying identity)
Of course you are. But the resistance to allowing transgender women to play in women's leagues has nothing to do with accepting someone's identity, but protecting the females of our species.
 

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